Hi And Help!

[FishLover66]

Hi all, I just recently returned to my love of tropical freshwater fish tanks after more than a few years away (left in mid-20's to focus on other things, including married life and family). Anyway, I got back in before the holidays mainly because my younger daughter got a female betta for a birthday present from one of her friends. Long story made short, I ended up with a betta of my own and thought it was the coolest (what a personality!) fish ever! He seemed perfectly happy in the 10 gallon community tank with neons, but I was frustrated with the limitations of a 10 gallon so I recently upgraded to a 27 gallon cube, which I thought would be better and easier to maintain. I had a 55 gallon in my early 20s and didn't have any issues, but we don't have the room for that large an aquarium in my home.

Anyway, I used Cycle to help move things along and slowly introduced the fish I had over a period of a week or two since the water quality was good. I also added fresh water aquarium salt because I read/heard that it's beneficial to reducing stress and preventing disease or helping to recover quickly from sickness, but now I'm not so sure that was a good idea. In addition to that, after another week with no issues and continued good water quality, I added a small white angel fish (LOVE them). THEN I saw marbled hatches in another fish store and waited a few days then bought 6 of them..... a day or two after that the angel started acting weird and was spiriling or on it's side. It dies shortly afterward. A few days later, two of the hatchets died and then yesterday another hatchet died. With all this going on, I was afraid that one of the fish introduced a disease so I started to use both API Melafix and API Pimafix as directed (also my Betta was starting to show frayed fins and discoloration on the tips, so I thought that would fix that as well.) Shortly thereafter, I noticed ICK on my betta.... So I started treating with API Super ICK cure. NOW my betta looks even worse--won't eat, doesn't swim as much and is basically just hanging around the top or bottom of the tank and his fins look even worse! ~ I have one more dose to do of both API Pima & Melafix tonight, but I'm thinking I did more damage although the package does say it's all natural and completely safe.... I have the last of two doses of the ICK meds yesterday and I'm due to do a 24% water change and add the carbon back on Friday. HELP--I feel as though I completely messed up my tank and want to save my betta!

 

[colleen0309]

First of all, welcome to the forum! You came to the right place. Sorry for your troubles. From what I have heard, melafix and pimafix should not be used with bettas. It has something to do with the labryinth organ. I'm not too sure about it though so more research is needed. I don't have a betta, so I'm not sure. Is there any way you can set the 10 gallon up as a hospital tank temporarily? Sounds like the betta could use alot of tlc. Now for a few questions to help sort out your problems with your tank. You say you used the product "Cycle" to move things along, but how did you cycle your filter? What are your water parameters? Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, and pH? What temp do you keep your tank at? Do you use dechlorinator? what test kit are you using? It sounds like maybe one of the new fish brought ich into your tank, or you have an ammonia problem. The first thing I would do is a big water change with warm dechlorinated water. If you can't set up a hospital tank, this will also help the betta's fins.

 

[FishLover66]

First of all, welcome to the forum! You came to the right place. Sorry for your troubles. From what I have heard, melafix and pimafix should not be used with bettas. It has something to do with the labryinth organ. I'm not too sure about it though so more research is needed. I don't have a betta, so I'm not sure. Is there any way you can set the 10 gallon up as a hospital tank temporarily? Sounds like the betta could use alot of tlc. Now for a few questions to help sort out your problems with your tank. You say you used the product "Cycle" to move things along, but how did you cycle your filter? What are your water parameters? Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, and pH? What temp do you keep your tank at? Do you use dechlorinator? what test kit are you using? It sounds like maybe one of the new fish brought ich into your tank, or you have an ammonia problem. The first thing I would do is a big water change with warm dechlorinated water. If you can't set up a hospital tank, this will also help the betta's fins.

Thanks so much for responding. Yes, I use dechlorinator/water conditioner and salt, which leads me to another question...should I use fresh water aquarium salt? Some people tell me it helps keep fish healthy, but clearly it didn't work for me. Others say don't use it or only use it temporarily when fish get sick...?

I had my water tested by a local dealer and they said everything looked perfect. I test weekly using a master fresh water kit by API and pH has run between 6.8 to 7.2, but I try to keep it at or below 7.0 because of the types of fish I keep. No ammonia or nitrite and nitrates are at 5.0. I keep the heater set for 78-80 usually but upped it to 82 because of the Ick. Unfortunately, I can't use the 10 gallon as my daughter is now using that to house two female bettas and two frogs. I did, however, scoop him out of the tank and gradually changed the water he was in to fresh, dechlorinated water and placed him back in the 'cup' he came in and placed that in the tank so he stays warm. Hopefully that will help. There have been no other fatalities the last couple of days, so I'm hopefull that after I do a water change tomorrow things will get back to normal.

Honestly, I think the melafix/pimafix made him worse. He was showing a little bit of tearing/shredding at the ends of his fins with a little discoloration at the tips, so I was afraid he had fin rot. While he no longer shows any signs of Ick, thank God, now his fins are litelly shredded and he appears to have some sort of film/slime on his scales located on his back end.... I feel so bad! I thought I was helping him and instead made him worse and am afraid he will die because of it.

Anyway, do you think by just doing a water change and keeping him isolated to the cup suspended in the tank is ok for now or should I medicate him with something else that would kill whatever that slime is and help his fins to heal? I've gotton so much conflicting information, I'm not sure what to do. I'm going to try to figure out how to upload pictures to this board so you can see the before (only a week ago) and now--it really is dramatic.

 

[snazy]

You shouldn't put salt really. What type of salt are you using and how much have you put? It may contain harmful staff in it like iodine as well. Melafix and Primafix contain some type of oil that prevents the bettas from breathing.
Probaby doing a large water change with no salt, pouring it slowly afterwards to give the fish time to adjust. Make sure you siphon your gravel because even if the ick is not on the fish, it maybe in it's free swimming stage in the water and gravel.
Test your water for ammonia and nitrites, as even if the tank was cycled, the bacteria could have been affected by the quick cure.

 

[the_lock_man]

You said that you try to keep the pH below 7.0 - how do you do that?

 

[snazy]

You said that you try to keep the pH below 7.0 - how do you do that?

In connection to that, I read that in a low Ph, or when Ph down products are used, Melafix can affect the bettas internal organs. This may be one reason why the fish seems worse from the treatment and others have had success with it.

 

[colleen0309]

If it was me, I'd put the betta back in the tank. The cup is too small and will cause undue stress, not to mention the quality of the water in the little container will go bad very fast. Quit using salt unless you are treating the tank for a disease.Alot of fish are salt sensitive. Lots of good clean dechlorinated water is great for healing.You may need a med if there are signs of fungus or infection. I think the "slime" you are talking about is his slime coat. A pic would help alot with this. To upload a pic, go to photobucket or imageshack ect... and upload the pic there and insert a link to it in your post.

 

[FishLover66]

Sadly, Mr. Q died overnight. He REALLY looked aweful and feel so bad that I put him through that. I really liked that fish.

I DO still want to know what when wrong to prevent this from happening in the future. I don't plan on getting any more fish for at least a month and even then only if everything looks perfect. The 3 hatches and 6 neons seem to be doing well, so hopefully this is the last of the dead fish for a while.

Thanks everyone for the information. I won't add any more salt to the tank. I did add pH Down once when the pH rose to 7.2, so that may have exacerbated things. If you only knew how much research I do before doing anything to this tank, but yet I always find out something I did was detrimental AFTER I do it. :::sigh::: There is just SO much conflicting information out there--it's so confusing. I do prefer to make it as simple as possible and not add anything that's not necessary, so I'll just stick to the fresh, dechlorinated water from now on.

Questions: What percentage of water should I change? I don't want to do too much for fear of stressing the fish I have, but also want to be sure I remove most of the toxins, disease from the tank. Also, I had planned on adding a new carbon pack to the filter (took the old one out when medicating), but should I replace all the pieces? I use the Aquaclear 30, so it has the sponge on the bottom, then the carbon, and the top of the filter is something that absorbs ammonia. Also, considering the large water change and potentially starting over with my biological filter, should I add the product Cycle again?

Going forward, I think I'm just going to go with VERY easy fish, at least until I get the hang of this again and my tank is fully cycled and stable.

I just thought of another question. Since I'm generally keeping fish that prefer low pH water, what IS the best way to adjust pH if it goes above 7.0 or do I even need to worry so much about that as long as it stays at or under 7.2?

Thanks!

You shouldn't put salt really. What type of salt are you using and how much have you put? It may contain harmful staff in it like iodine as well. Melafix and Primafix contain some type of oil that prevents the bettas from breathing.
Probaby doing a large water change with no salt, pouring it slowly afterwards to give the fish time to adjust. Make sure you siphon your gravel because even if the ick is not on the fish, it maybe in it's free swimming stage in the water and gravel.
Test your water for ammonia and nitrites, as even if the tank was cycled, the bacteria could have been affected by the quick cure.

I used API Aquarium Salt for fresh water tanks and followed the directions. It stated 1 Tbl per 5 gallons. But I won't be using that again.

 

[the_lock_man]

I would suspect that your problems have been down to an immature filter - you say that you got the aquarium shortly before Christmas, and that seems to me to be too short a timescale to properly cycle the filter, Cycle notwithstanding.

I read that you have a 27gallon tank, but can you give us a few more details please?

Current ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH levels?
Exactly how long has the tank been set up?
How often were you testing the water?
WHat did you use to test the water (ie strips or liquids)?
How often were you carrying out a water change?
What proportion of the water were you changing at that point?

Sorry, I know that's a lot to fire off at you all at once, but the more details you give, the better the answers you receive.

 

[snazy]

I used API Aquarium Salt for fresh water tanks and followed the directions. It stated 1 Tbl per 5 gallons. But I won't be using that again.

It's no harm to use Aquarium salt to treat the fish, like in your case if they had ick, accompanied with higher temperature is a valid method of threatment. The salt is not needed permanently, so once you are finished the treatment, do a water change to remove it.

What I think has affected your fish, is the Ph down thing you used. This is definately not needed in my opinion and asks for trouble. I think the Melafix and low Ph did your Betta to be honest.

 

[FishLover66]

I would suspect that your problems have been down to an immature filter - you say that you got the aquarium shortly before Christmas, and that seems to me to be too short a timescale to properly cycle the filter, Cycle notwithstanding.

I read that you have a 27gallon tank, but can you give us a few more details please?

Current ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH levels?
Exactly how long has the tank been set up?
How often were you testing the water?
WHat did you use to test the water (ie strips or liquids)?
How often were you carrying out a water change?
What proportion of the water were you changing at that point?

Sorry, I know that's a lot to fire off at you all at once, but the more details you give, the better the answers you receive.

Oh, that's quite alright! I really appreciate any help you can provide.

I just tested the water a couple days ago with my API Master Test Kit (for freshwater aquariums) and everything seemed fine. Zero ammonia, no nitrites, 5.0 nitrates, and the pH was 6.8. Water temp 80. I used to use the test strips, but they don't seem very accurate--always gave me the same results. I typically test weekly, water changes every other week unless weekly test indicates it's needed. The tank has been set up for three weeks. I added all of the substrate from my cycled 10 gallon and rinsed the new filter mediums in the old tank water. I also added some of the water from my cycled tank to the new 27g Cube. On top of that I added fresh water aquarium salt, water conditioner, and Cycle to the fresh tap water I added. Left things alone for about a week and a half, tested the water (all parameters were good), and added an Angel. Waited another few days and bought 6 hatches. A day later the Angel died and then three of the hatchets died within days of that. I acclimated all the fish to the tank before netting them in, but the last batch was released by my daughter who dumped all the store water in my tank with the new fish.

I typically change approx 25% of the water every other week.

You shouldn't put salt really. What type of salt are you using and how much have you put? It may contain harmful staff in it like iodine as well. Melafix and Primafix contain some type of oil that prevents the bettas from breathing.
Probaby doing a large water change with no salt, pouring it slowly afterwards to give the fish time to adjust. Make sure you siphon your gravel because even if the ick is not on the fish, it maybe in it's free swimming stage in the water and gravel.
Test your water for ammonia and nitrites, as even if the tank was cycled, the bacteria could have been affected by the quick cure.

I used the API Aquarium Salt for freshwater. I can't tell you how many people in several different aquariums/pet stores and they all said it's beneficial for the fish. SHEESH!

 

[FishLover66]

I used API Aquarium Salt for fresh water tanks and followed the directions. It stated 1 Tbl per 5 gallons. But I won't be using that again.

It's no harm to use Aquarium salt to treat the fish, like in your case if they had ick, accompanied with higher temperature is a valid method of threatment. The salt is not needed permanently, so once you are finished the treatment, do a water change to remove it.

What I think has affected your fish, is the Ph down thing you used. This is definately not needed in my opinion and asks for trouble. I think the Melafix and low Ph did your Betta to be honest.

Thanks for the help with that. I definitely won't be doing that again! So, even though I keep fish that like low pH, it's more important to keep it stable and as long as it doesn't go above 7.2 I should be ok? If it does go above 7.2, what is an easy and safe way to lower pH?

 

[snazy]

I wouldn't mess with the Ph. As I said you are going to kill the fish, rather than help them live in a suitable enviroment.
A change from 7.2 to 6.8 is huge, because Ph is measured on a logarithmic scale, and it can be deadly. Just don't try changing it with chemicals, and it should stabalize itself.
Naturally, driftwood is supposed to lower it over time and is the easy and safe option. I would not do anything else besides that personally.

Edit: I mean, there is a lot more to healthy water than just a Ph value

 

[colleen0309]

You can also add peat to the filter to lower pH.

 

[FishLover66]

I wouldn't mess with the Ph. As I said you are going to kill the fish, rather than help them live in a suitable enviroment.
A change from 7.2 to 6.8 is huge, because Ph is measured on a logarithmic scale, and it can be deadly. Just don't try changing it with chemicals, and it should stabalize itself.
Naturally, driftwood is supposed to lower it over time and is the easy and safe option. I would not do anything else besides that personally.

Edit: I mean, there is a lot more to healthy water than just a Ph value

Thanks. I guess I really goofed. Thought I was helping them. Anyway, I actually prefer not to worry about adjusting the pH and as long as the fish will be ok outside their preferred range, than I'm fine with that!

I'll keep the driftwood in mind in case the pH starts to get on the high side.

Thanks again!