Help with my kleiner bar sword propagation?

Tony blazer

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I purchased a kleiner bar sword plant a few weeks ago. It is an awesome plant. The leaves turn a brownish-red color and the shape of the leaves are quite different than Amazon swords. I now have this long stem shooting upward which I believe are three new baby plants shoots. Question is how do I allow the baby plants to grow do I keep it on the vine until they get to a certain size do I snip and replant. I really can't find any real information.
 

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Byron

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The "long stem" is an inflorescence. All species in the genus Echinodorus will produce one (or sometimes more) inflorescence once settled and if conditions are good, as yours seem to be. When the plant is grown submersed as here, flowers will not develop along this inflorescence (sometimes they do with the species Echinodorus major, but not other species so far as I am aware). When the plant is grown emersed as a marsh or bog plant, it will produce flowers along this inflorescence. In the natural habitat of most species, they are emersed for half the year which is when they flower.

Adventitious plants produced from each node along the stem will usually be two per node. You can leave these if you want that appearance, or remove the plantlets carefully once they have sufficient leaves and roots. They do not receive any nutrients from the parent plant once this occurs, but only from the water. Take hold of the plantlet and gently pull it down the stem, i.e., pulling toward the parent plant. They usually come off easily.
 
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Tony blazer

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The "long stem" is an inflorescence. All species in the genus Echinodorus will produce one (or sometimes more) inflorescence once settled and if conditions are good, as yours seem to be. When the plant is grown submersed as here, flowers will not develop along this inflorescence (sometimes they do with the species Echinodorus major, but not other species so far as I am aware). When the plant is grown emersed as a marsh or bog plant, it will produce flowers along this inflorescence. In the natural habitat of most species, they are emersed for half the year which is when they flower.

Adventitious plants produced from each node along the stem will usually be two per node. You can leave these if you want that appearance, or remove the plantlets carefully once they have sufficient leaves and roots. They do not receive any nutrients from the parent plant once this occurs, but only from the water. Take hold of the plantlet and gently pull it down the stem, i.e., pulling toward the parent plant. They usually come off easily.
Thank you sir
 

Stan510

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You could also pin them down to small pots with gravel over a small amount of potting soil. As they appear to root in..you can cut the cord and move them to another tank with no set backs. Or..pin them down in the tank's substrate where you want more to grow.
 
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Tony blazer

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It's growing very fast I can't really find any real information on propagation of the kleiner bar sword. I want back to my local fish store and they said they never really get this plant in it must have been just something that came in with the shipment they have no clue if I should let it continue to growing on the vine or do I separated from the Vine. I don't want to push down the Vine too much because it may snap. I don't know if it will kill the three baby plants that is growing off of it. Here's an update picture of it in all its Glory at this point.

I have not really had a lot of plants in my aquarium since 2006 and 2014 with my last two African cichlid setups in this tank. Both tanks run its course with the groups of cichlids I introduced at the beginning but I decided to go with a community tank this time because as we all know once the cichlids get established in a tank is very hard to replace them in the tank and eventually the tank dies out through the normal life cycle of the cichlids.

This is a very cool plant looks very different than the Amazon sword leaf shape and the leaves turn brownish red
 

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Stan510

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I'm so old,I sometimes ask questions forgetting about the internet and google. Did it again.
Anyways,it's a great sword,I think thats whats in Amano's Lisbon masterpiece. The more Co2 and light the redder it gets.
I think I overdid the red plants on my own tank. So,my E.grisebachii ( i hate to say E. bleheri because that's not the latin name. More of Axelrod cronyism) as all green in the middle is ok.
But,a tank of E.grisebachii and others like it is a great look. So opposite of the small plant craze.
 

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It's growing very fast I can't really find any real information on propagation of the kleiner bar sword. I want back to my local fish store and they said they never really get this plant in it must have been just something that came in with the shipment they have no clue if I should let it continue growing how it is do I keep it on the vine or do I separated from the from the Vine. I don't want to push down the the Vine too much because it may snaps. I don't know if it will kill the three baby plants that is growing off it. Here's an update picture of it in all its Glory at this point.
I did cover this previously. You can remove the adventitious plants once they have leaves and adequate roots, which I would consider to be maybe 1.5 inches and more. Once you see roots along the inflorescence the adventitious plants are not receiving any nutrition from the parent plant via the inflorescence. You can remove them or leave them; sometimes the inflorescence(s) can be quite attractive, though the adventitious plants being closer to the surface do usually develop algae issues. The photos below show dozens of adventitious plants left on the inflorescences at various times in my 5-foot Amazon riverscape. These were Echinodorus gresbachii (the "E. bleherae" form which is no longer recognized as a distinct species) but all species in the genus produce the same sort of inflorescence which only produce adventitious plants when grown submersed but which would produce flowers if grown emersed.

The Echinodorus 'Kleiner Bar" is not a natural species. It originated in the 1990's in the aquatic plant nursery Julius Hoechstetter, Trostberg, from hybridization experiments, and has been propagated for trade by the aquatic plant nursery Dennerle. According to the nursery, it is a hybrid of E. parviflorus, E. X barthii, and E. uruguayensis (syn. E. horemanii "red"). Kasselmann (2003) says it requires intense light without additional CO2, and good nutrition. All Echinodorus plants are heavy feeders, so substrate tabs (Seachem's Flourish Tabs is an excellent one) will greatly benefit.
 

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Tony blazer

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@Byron love your tank I can smoke a Jay and just stare at that all night. The first one has not flowered yet the second one has one bud the third has three buds now. When the first one starts budding out I will take your advice and I will slip them off and plant them in the ground and add some root tabs.

Question for you if I left it on the vine with the three plants start growing from the vine or eventually they need to be separated. In nature with the vine work its way down to the substrate and separate from The Vine by itself? I am not clear what is the natural process of this plant ?
 

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@Byron love your tank I can smoke a Jay and just stare at that all night. The first one has not flowered yet the second one has one bud the third has three buds now. When the first one starts budding out I will take your advice and I will slip them off and plant them in the ground and add some root tabs.

Question for you if I left it on the vine with the three plants start growing from the vine or eventually they need to be separated. In nature with the vine work its way down to the substrate and separate from The Vine by itself? I am not clear what is the natural process of this plant ?
Thank you.

No, the inflorescence will remain up in the water column because it is not heavy enough to sink, and it is usually quite rigid as it grows. The adventitious plants will continue to grow attached to the inflorescence (but obtaining no nutrients from it) until something breaks them off. This is less common in nature. All species are perennial or annual aquatic or marsh plants found in boggy flood areas or along the banks of stagnant or slow-flowing waters. Except for the very few species that are permanently submersed, Echinodorus plants spend half the year emersed (when they flower) and the remainder submersed during the flood season. Leaves arise in a rosette and can be very variable not only between emersed and submersed forms but also when cultivated under different conditions. Correct identification often requires study of the flower. Inflorescences (flower stalks) are formed in all species; when grown permanently submersed in the aquarium most species will not flower but adventitious plants (plantlets or daughter plants) will develop from the nodes on the inflorescence.

In nature, insects pollinate the flowers and seeds are produced; the name Echinodorus derives from the Greek echinos [hedgehog] and doros [pipe or hose] referring to the spiny fruit. The English common name of "sword plant" comes from the general lanceolate shape of the leaf of most species and is generally used for all plants in this genus although other non-Echinodorus plants may sometimes appear under the name "sword."

So in the habitat of the true natural species, the plants only reproduce sexually, not vegetatively as occurs when grown submersed such as in the aquarium. It is rare to find these plants growing submersed permanently. But fortunately, they do very well permanently submersed which is why they are such favourites with aquarists. I have never attempted emersed cultivation. I did have the species Echinodorus major for several years, and this natural species is one that will flower submersed, and it did so three or four times over a decade. The flowers are below. Most of the natural species produce similar small white flowers, but the flowers do vary with the species which as I said above is the only real way to identify a natural species, by the flower, as the growing conditions can easily result in quite different leaf appearances; the submersed and emersed leaf forms are different in all species. This is further demonstrated when one considers that the "species" Echinodorus amazonicus, Echinodorus amazonicus var. parviflorus, Echinodorus amphibius, Echinodorus bleherae, Echinodorus eglandulosus, Echinodorus gracilis, Echinodorus grisebachii var. minor, and Echinodorus parviflorus are not true distinct species at all, but all of these are the one species Echinodorus grisebachii. Lehtonen's phylogenetic analysis determined this.

Confusion has existed for the past few decades over the number of species in the genus Echinodorus, and many have been known under different names. In his earlier study of the genus, Rataj (1975) listed 47 species. A major revision by the botanists R.R. Haynes and L.B. Holm-Nielsen (1994) listed 26 species. In his 2004 revision, Rataj increased the number of species to 62. More recent work by Samuli Lehtonen—incorporating phylogenetic (DNA) analysis—proposed 28 valid species (Lehtonen, 2007). As of 2013, The Plant List and the World Checklist of Selected Plant Families (maintained by Kew) have 30 distinct species listed for Echinodorus.
 

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Tony blazer

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Thank you.

No, the inflorescence will remain up in the water column because it is not heavy enough to sink, and it is usually quite rigid as it grows. The adventitious plants will continue to grow attached to the inflorescence (but obtaining no nutrients from it) until something breaks them off. This is less common in nature. All species are perennial or annual aquatic or marsh plants found in boggy flood areas or along the banks of stagnant or slow-flowing waters. Except for the very few species that are permanently submersed, Echinodorus plants spend half the year emersed (when they flower) and the remainder submersed during the flood season. Leaves arise in a rosette and can be very variable not only between emersed and submersed forms but also when cultivated under different conditions. Correct identification often requires study of the flower. Inflorescences (flower stalks) are formed in all species; when grown permanently submersed in the aquarium most species will not flower but adventitious plants (plantlets or daughter plants) will develop from the nodes on the inflorescence.

In nature, insects pollinate the flowers and seeds are produced; the name Echinodorus derives from the Greek echinos [hedgehog] and doros [pipe or hose] referring to the spiny fruit. The English common name of "sword plant" comes from the general lanceolate shape of the leaf of most species and is generally used for all plants in this genus although other non-Echinodorus plants may sometimes appear under the name "sword."

So in the habitat of the true natural species, the plants only reproduce sexually, not vegetatively as occurs when grown submersed such as in the aquarium. It is rare to find these plants growing submersed permanently. But fortunately, they do very well permanently submersed which is why they are such favourites with aquarists. I have never attempted emersed cultivation. I did have the species Echinodorus major for several years, and this natural species is one that will flower submersed, and it did so three or four times over a decade. The flowers are below. Most of the natural species produce similar small white flowers, but the flowers do vary with the species which as I said above is the only real way to identify a natural species, by the flower, as the growing conditions can easily result in quite different leaf appearances; the submersed and emersed leaf forms are different in all species. This is further demonstrated when one considers that the "species" Echinodorus amazonicus, Echinodorus amazonicus var. parviflorus, Echinodorus amphibius, Echinodorus bleherae, Echinodorus eglandulosus, Echinodorus gracilis, Echinodorus grisebachii var. minor, and Echinodorus parviflorus are not true distinct species at all, but all of these are the one species Echinodorus grisebachii. Lehtonen's phylogenetic analysis determined this.

Confusion has existed for the past few decades over the number of species in the genus Echinodorus, and many have been known under different names. In his earlier study of the genus, Rataj (1975) listed 47 species. A major revision by the botanists R.R. Haynes and L.B. Holm-Nielsen (1994) listed 26 species. In his 2004 revision, Rataj increased the number of species to 62. More recent work by Samuli Lehtonen—incorporating phylogenetic (DNA) analysis—proposed 28 valid species (Lehtonen, 2007). As of 2013, The Plant List and the World Checklist of Selected Plant Families (maintained by Kew) have 30 distinct species listed for Echinodorus.
So now I know who to go to for all my aquatic plant needs
 

Stan510

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Kevin Novak PhD on youtubes says plant tabs are unneeded and really feed the algae more than the plant. Mine has never gotten anything but iron gluconate and couldn't look any better. It's in the same pot with soils since planting it in Sept or so 2018.The sword was stunted badly. Since dosing iron..its just grown beautifully. I did think of trying root tablets but when I saw that 10 little tablets were $10?..no way. They must be a 5,000% profit for the makers! Tom Barr has also written that Sword plants grow very fast on iron gluconate.
Also,Echinodorus grisebachii is said to be the only large Sword plant that will not grow above the waterline in the aquarium. It does seem "soft" leafed. But thats in captivity..in the Amazon and 100% humidity and 96f temps..it might be fine on a muddy bank out of water.

One last thought..if you really want to use ferts at the roots? You could wrap some Osmocote in something that rots fast..paper for one,pushed down into the roots.
 

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Kevin Novak PhD on youtubes says plant tabs are unneeded and really feed the algae more than the plant.
This is certainly false as a general statement. It does matter which substrate tabs; the diy things like Osmocote definitely can cause algae problems largely because the nutrients are intended for terrestrial not aquatic plants. I have been using the Seachem Flourish Tabs for a decade now and have no algae issues, but my Echinodorus without question show considerable improvement. And the Seachem tabs do not release nutrients into the upper water column so algae is not encouraged; I've no idea how they achieve this, but from my experience and research it seems to be a valid claim. The algae issues I had when using liquid fertilizers including iron have disappeared since I changed to primarily using the tabs, and as I say the swords in particular took off. I posted photos in post #7. Back in 2008/9 I had incredible results with Nutrafin Plant-Gro sticks; I have not beeen able to find these anywhere online since, so I assume they stopped manufacturing them.

As for Echinodorus grisebachii, this is a bog plant that grows emersed in its habitat during the dry season and may (or may not) be submersed depending upon the location. Lehtonen ("An integrative approach to species delimitation in Echinodorus (Alismataceae) and the description of two new species," 2008) provides te following in his description of the species.

DISTRIBUTION AND ECOLOGY. From South Brazil to Central America and Cuba. Floodplains, palm swamps, rivers and creeks with varying water level. Flowering and fruiting year round. From sea level to 280 m.

Perennial, from rhizomes, glabrous, to 110 cm. Leaves emersed and submersed, emersed blades elliptic, undulating, 3 – 7 pseudopinnate veins, 5 – 14 cm long, 1 – 6 cm wide, pellucid markings present as lines, apex acute to acuminate, base attenuate to truncate, petioles triangular in cross-section, 2 – 25 cm long, 2 – 4 mm diam., base with a sheath to 5 cm long, submersed blades linear to elliptic, entire, margins undulate, 1 – 5 pseudopinnate veins, 6 – 25 cm long, 0.7 – 2.5 cm wide, pellucid markings absent or present as lines, apex acute, base attenuate, petioles triangular in cross-section, to 12 cm long, 2 mm diam., base with a sheath to 2 cm long. Inflorescence racemose or paniculate, of 3 – 12 whorls, each 3 – 9-flowered, erect to decumbent, overtopping leaves, often proliferating, 13 – 70 cm long, 1 – 5 cm wide, rachis triangular to slightly alate, peduncles triangular in cross-section, 10 – 35 cm long, 3 mm wide, bracts slightly connate at the base, lanceolate, delicate, shorter than to longer than pedicels subtended, 0.3 – 2.5 cm long, 1 – 3 mm wide, 5 – 9veined, apex acuminate, pedicels spreading in flower, recurved in fruit, terete, 0.2 – 1 cm long, 0.2 mm diam. Flowers c. 1 cm diam., sepals and petals spreading, sepals 6 – 10-veined, c. 2 mm long, c. 1 mm wide, veins without papillae, petals white, not clawed, not overlapping, c. 5 mm long, c. 3 mm wide, stamens 9 – 12, anthers versatile, c. 0.5 mm long, filaments c. 1 mm long, carpels numerous. Fruit obovoid, 3 – 4-ribbed, glandular, 1.5 – 2.2 mm long, c. 0.5 mm wide, glands 2 – 5, separated by ribs, circular, beak terminal, erect, 0.2 – 0.5 mm.

NOTES. Echinodorus grisebachii is a highly polymorphic and phenotypically plastic species. Rataj (1975) split this taxon into several distinct species, which were synonymised by Haynes & Holm-Nielsen (1994). Before that Holm-Nielsen & Haynes (1985) described E. eglandulosus, while they were still following Rataj’s (1975) classification and circumscription of the group. The species was said to be distinguished by its fruits that are not glandular (Holm-Nielsen & Haynes 1985). I have studied the holotype, one isotype, and most of the paratypes without finding mature fruits. Instead, all this material has immature fruits lacking glands, which is generally typical for the immature fruits of Echinodorus. Since the only diagnostic character is not present in the type specimens, the status of this species is highly questionable even under a very narrow species concept. In the phylogenetic analyses (Lehtonen & Myllys 2008) E. eglandulosus was nested within E. grisebachii. The analyses (Lehtonen & Myllys 2008) also included one cultivated population matching Rataj’s(1967) description of E. gracilis. According to DNA evidence it was placed within E. grisebachii, but total-evidence analysis resolved it as a sister to the rest of E. grisebachii and E. eglandulosus (Lehtonen & Myllys 2008). Kasselmann (2001) described a small-sized variant of this species. However, Echinodorus grisebachii is a morphologically highly variable species, and the type specimen of var. minor falls within the normal size variation of the species. Therefore there is no need for taxonomic recognition of this growth form.
 

Stan510

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I would stick with E.grisebachii myself. Speaking of "How does Seachem do it?"..I have the same thought lately about their iron gluconate. So,why only does there's really push plant growth?..I wonder if like gasoline they use an additive that they don't mention? a tiny bit of nitrogen or nitrate? My algae went way down..not to zero..but way down and I still don't see any need for potassium or magnesium as other trace elements. Things that quickly died on me last year..are doing well now with new plants including Bolbitis and "Christmas moss". Not Co2 well...but growing.
 
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Tony blazer

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@Byron update. I would like you to tell me when I should cut and separate the babies plants from the the Vine ie inflorescence.

I know you told me the plants needs to start developing roots so it can feed itself I don't see any Roots yet the distal baby has 5 sprouts the second one only has one sprout with three others really starting to develop and the approximal sprout really doesn't have anything yet. After I remove all three baby plants do I leave the inflorescence intact at the base of the plant or do I remove the entire thing? I'm not sure will new sprouts grow from it or another one will develop from the base of the plant later.
 

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