Help with mutiple tank questions...

[Aged_Cheddar]

OK, first post, and it's a doozy...

First off, I'm not totally new to aquariums, I've have a few over the years, but nothing terribly advanced, what I've got now is a bit of an enigma to me...

My roommate moved out, and rather than go through the trouble of moving his tank, he left it with me, which is fine, I didn't currently have a tank, so this lets me walk back into the hobby with most of what I would need.

Now, the facts/stats...

I feel that the tank is overstocked, despite the fact these fish are obviously healthy, and have been tankmates with no additions or issues (that I'm aware of) for at least the last 6 months.

I feel like it might be over filtered (if that's possible) the tank is a 20g Tall, and the filter is a Fluval AquaClear 70...Yes a 70 in a 20g tank.

Fish species and quantities are (as far as I can tell):
10 Neon Tetras (might be 11)
8 Cherry Barbs (might be 7)
4 Pearl Danios (certain of this count)
3 Albino Corydoras (certain of this count)
2 Dwarf Gouramis, 1 honey, 1 red
2 Ghost shrimp...but there could be some hiding...man they're tiny.

The other "issue" I have is this is also a planted tank, with currently at least 10-12 varieties of plants, all are currently healthy (at least they look healthy), and I'm in the middle of researching exactly what each one is, so I can learn a little more about caring for them, as well as the fish. I've never had a planted tank, so I'm excited for the challenge.

So...The actual questions.
1. Am I overstocked? If so, which fish should I rehome?
2. Am I over filtered?
3. I have an API Freshwater master testing kit, and API GH & KH testing kits on order, are there any other testing kits I should have for planted tanks?
4. I don't have any "plant foods" suggestions on ones to get? (I'm sure this is probably plant specific right?)

Sorry for the MEGA first post, and thanks for any help you can offer.

 

[Colin_T]

Hi and welcome to the forum

An AquaClear 70 HOB filter is probably a bit much water movement for the neons and gouramis but the danios would love it. If you turn it down to its lowest setting it would be better. To do this just move the intake tube to one side by the little bit that sticks out above the lid.

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What are the tank dimensions (length x width x height)?

What is the GH (general hardness), KH (carbonate hardness) and pH of your water supply?
This information can usually be obtained from your water supply company's website or by telephoning them. If they can't help you, take a glass full of tap water to the local pet shop and get them to test it for you. Write the results down (in numbers) when they do the tests. And ask them what the results are in (eg: ppm, dGH, or something else).

Depending on what the GH of your water is, will determine what fish you should keep.

Angelfish, most tetras, barbs, Bettas, gouramis, rasbora, Corydoras and small species of suckermouth catfish all occur in soft water (GH below 150ppm) and a pH below 7.0.

Livebearers (guppies, platies, swordtails, mollies), rainbowfish and goldfish occur in medium hard water with a GH around 200-250ppm and a pH above 7.0.

If you have very hard water (GH above 300ppm) then look at African Rift Lake cichlids, or use distilled or reverse osmosis water to reduce the GH and keep fishes from softer water.

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The overstocking can be dealt with when we know the water chemistry and tank dimensions.

How often do you do water changes and how much do you change?
How often and how do you clean the filter?

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LIGHTING TIMES
Most aquarium plants like a bit of light and if you only have the light on for a couple of hours a day, they struggle. If the light doesn't have a high enough wattage they also struggle. Try having the tank lights on for 10-12 hours a day.

If you get lots of green algae then reduce the light by an hour a day and monitor the algae over the next 2 weeks.
If you don't get any green algae on the glass then increase the lighting period by an hour and monitor it.
If you get a small amount of algae then the lighting time is about right.

Some plants will close their leaves up when they have had sufficient light. Ambulia, Hygrophilas and a few others close their top set of leaves first, then the next set and so on down the stem. When you see this happening, wait an hour after the leaves have closed up against the stem and then turn lights off.

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TURNING LIGHTS ON AND OFF
Stress from tank lights coming on when the room is dark can be an issue. Fish don't have eyelids and don't tolerate going from complete dark to bright light (or vice versa) instantly.

In the morning open the curtains or turn the room light on at least 30 minutes (or more) before turning the tank light on. This will reduce the stress on the fish and they won't go from a dark tank to a bright tank instantly.

At night turn the room light on and then turn the tank light off. Wait at least 30 minutes (or more) before turning the room light out. This allows the fish to settle down for the night instead of going from a brightly lit tank to complete darkness instantly.

Try to have the lights on at the same time each day. Use a timer if possible.

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IRON BASED PLANT FERTILISER
If you add an iron based aquarium plant fertiliser, it will help most aquarium plants do well. The liquid iron based aquarium plant fertilisers tend to be better than the tablet forms, although you can push the tablets under the roots of plants and that works well.

You use an iron (Fe) test kit to monitor iron levels and keep them at 1mg/l (1ppm).

I used Sera Florena liquid plant fertiliser but there are other brands too.

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CARBON DIOXIDE (CO2)
There is no point adding carbon dioxide (CO2) until you have the lights and nutrients worked out. Even then you don't need CO2 unless the tank is full of plants and only has a few small fish in.

There is plenty of CO2 in the average aquarium and it is produced by the fish and filter bacteria all day, every day. The plants also release CO2 at night when it is dark. And more CO2 gets into the tank from the atmosphere.

Don't use liquid CO2 supplements because they are made from toxic substances that harm fish, shrimp and snails.

 

[Bruce Leyland-Jones]

Am I over filtered?

@Colin_T has you covered with most things, but I'll respond to this one in particular...
Some might say that you can never be 'over-filtered' and then be countered by others saying that that is a myth.
What the latter seem to fail to understand the basic terminology and often get caught up in the discussion about filtering being equated with the power of the flow.
Most would agree that you can have too much flow and, given the varied needs of fish, it is always desirable to have filters with which you can control the flow.
Many modern filters possess this facility, but for those that don't, flow can be easily reduced simply be attaching a sponge over the outlet.

'Filtering' in an aquarium should be understood to mean the removal of undesirable elements from the water.
Obviously, you can never, ever have too much removal of undesirables.
Just be cautious as to what you might class as 'undesirables', because in some instances, you might be removing material helpful for the tank. For example, I could easily remove floating algae from my tank, but I deliberately maintain my water as ever-so slightly green, because my shrimp and wood shrimp in particular, 'enjoy' it.

 

[Aged_Cheddar]

@Colin_T

Wow, lots of info thanks!

I'll try and answer what I can, the best I can.

Filter flow...Yep I've got it set to it's lowest flow possible, the fish seem to "ride the currents" good, but during feeding I've been unplugging the filter to make feeding easier.

Tank dimensions are 24" wide, 12" deep & 16" tall.

I don't have the GH & KH numbers right this moment, but my GH & KH API testing kit will be here tomorrow, I'll test & post numbers then. My current API Master test kit has pH, I'll measure that at the same time.

Since I just did a 50% water change yesterday, I'll be planning on doing it every Sunday, unless it's deemed I should be doing it more frequently.

I haven't "cleaned" the filter per se...I replaced the filter element yesterday, but I reused the carbon & bio media bags...I do have new carbon and BioMax bags on order if I need them, they should be her Thurs.

Lighting...I've got it on from 7AM until around 10PM I know this is way too long, but it's basically my "awake time" so I have the lights on, I'll readjust and do as you suggested (room lights on first and off last), and I'll dial back the "lights on" time.

I've been looking at one of these too ---> Fluval AquaSky but I'm not sure how it'll be for the plants?

I'll look into the plant fertilizer you suggested. and I'll order an Fe test kit today.

And as far as CO2...I'm hoping I won't have to mess with any of that, but I'll cross that bridge then.

Thanks again! I hope that answers your questions?

 

[Bruce Leyland-Jones]

I've been looking at one of these too ---> Fluval AquaSky but I'm not sure how it'll be for the plants?

I have one of these now in two of my tanks and I'm rather happy with them.
I made a review of the light here.

EDIT: Link added.

 

[Aged_Cheddar]

One additional question...

According to the bag, this is the substrate that's in the tank ----> Fluval Stratum How does one use a gravel vacuum on this stuff? I feel like it'll just suck up the substrate along with the waste below it?

Yesterday I just did the WC, I didn't gravel vac at all.

 

[Aged_Cheddar]

I have one of these now in two of my tanks and I'm rather happy with them.
I made a review of the light here.

EDIT: Link added.

Great review! It certainly helps me move in that direction, but at $95 for the 24-36 model it's a big pill to swallow.

Because my tank width is 24" I "could" go with the 15-24 model, but that drops the wattage down from 18 to 12, and I'm not sure that's enough to get quality light to the bottom of a 16" deep tank.

And, to further complicate things, there is no way that lamp will fit inside my existing hood, I believe this tank was originally one of those PetSmart/Top fin starter packages, so the hood is...less than fancy.

So, to use one of those AquaSky lights, it'll need to be an "open top" tank, I think that'll be OK though, because I don't believe any of the current inhabitants are jumpers.

 

[Bruce Leyland-Jones]

One additional question...

According to the bag, this is the substrate that's in the tank ----> Fluval Stratum How does one use a gravel vacuum on this stuff? I feel like it'll just suck up the substrate along with the waste below it?

Yesterday I just did the WC, I didn't gravel vac at all.

I'd just treat it as you would sand...which would be with a delicate touch.
I only use a 1cm diameter pipe for my syphoning, with a finger over each end, so I'm able to do this.

I'm also one of those fortunate crew that only has to seriously vac the substrate once in a blue moon.

Great review! It certainly helps me move in that direction, but at $95 for the 24-36 model it's a big pill to swallow.

Ta.
On reflection, you pay for a lot of fancy settings that are, to be frank, unnecessary and intended to please and attract tech geeks and those impressed by such things.
Do we really REALLY need to schedule in a cloudy day, followed by a thunderstorm, followed by a less cloudy day and a sunny day to follow?
I also appreciate the facility to change the spectrum of the light produced and consider this feature to be future-proofing, for when I really know what I'm talking about, plant-wise.

NOTE that there are some amongst us who might insist that everything needs to be constant in our tanks and, whilst I can appreciate some of the arguments for that approach, constancy is never a feature in the wild.

 

[Slaphppy7]

For a general guide on stocking, see here: http://www.aqadvisor.com/AqAdvisor....qSpeciesWindowSize=short&AqSearchMode=simple&

It isn't a perfect guide, but a good reference, regardless

 

[Rocky998]

I have the same exact size tank (cycling right now)... Everyone here has definitely given good advice, and in my opinion, the tank is overstocked. But if the fish seem to be healthy I wouldnt worry much... Just remember that you may want to think about upgrading your tank size... If the tank looks like its really full then imagine how the fish feel. You already have a good filter to upgrade up to a 70G... The filter I have is an aquaclear 30 which is filtering as we speak and doing a great job...

 

[Aged_Cheddar]

For a general guide on stocking, see here: http/www.aqadvisor.com/AqAdvisor.php?AqJuvMode=0&AquTankName=&AquListBoxTank=Choose&AquTankLength=36&AquTankDepth=18&AquTankHeight=16&AquListBoxFilter=Eheim 2215&AquTextFilterRate=95 &AquListBoxFilter2=Aquaclear 70&AquTextFilterRate2=70 &AquFilterString=&AquListBoxChooser=Red Cherry Shrimp (Neocaridina heteropoda)&AquTextBoxQuantity=25&AquTextBoxRemoveQuantity=&AlreadySelected=200911191421:6::,201001281120:10::,200909300164:2::,200909300033:1::,200911111530:10::,200912051330:10::,200909300013:2::,200909300134:2::,200909300219:6::,200909300196:10::&FilterMode=Display all species&AqTempUnit=F&AqVolUnit=gUS&AqLengthUnit=inch&AqSortType=cname&FilterQuantity=2&AqSpeciesWindowSize=short&AqSearchMode=simple&

It isn't a perfect guide, but a good reference, regardless

Yeah, I saw this page last night and ran the numbers.

According to that page my stats are:
Filtration Capacity (based on current stocking) 141%
Stocking Level 138%
Suggested WC 47% weekly (or split into two 27% changes)

I guess I'm happy with that filtration number, so unless there's a reason to change, I'll just keep this filter.

A 47% WC isn't an issue for me, yesterday was approx. 50%

But that stocking level of 138% bothers me, these fish appear healthy & happy, and I want them to stay that way, but I fear a stocking level of 138% isn't really long term viable.

So as I mentioned above, once my KH & GH test kit gets here tomorrow I'll add them to my API master kit, and test the waters to see where we are at as far as bio load goes and other crucial numbers, I wonder if the plants are helping to stabilize the extra 38% overstock?

I'd love to keep all the fish I have, because they really do seem to coexist really well together in this existing ecosystem, and they're pleasing to watch, but I don't want to be overstocked if it will risk the health of what's in there.

 

[Slaphppy7]

Personally, I don't think the stocking level you have will cause any issues.

 

[Bruce Leyland-Jones]

But that stocking level of 138% bothers me, these fish appear healthy & happy, and I want them to stay that way, but I fear a stocking level of 138% isn't really long term viable.

This brings up a point that we all discover, only when we move our fish to larger quarters and then realise that their behaviour changes for the better.
Also, be aware that whilst AqAdvisor provides a great starting point, it shouldn't be regarded as Gospel.

I tended to use AqAdvisor alongside Seriously Fish and other, more random resources.

 

[Aged_Cheddar]

So I went to my cities water utility page, and they said that my water is "very hard at 18-20 grains of hardness per gallon"....that equates out to something like 308-342 ppm...so yeah, very very hard.

Once my GH & KH kit gets here tomorrow I'll confirm...But if those above numbers are correct, these fish have been swimming in rock hard water for at least 6 months, I know my old roommate wasn't using RO water or anything, he'd just use tap water and the Tetra Aqua Safe to remove the chlorine etc..

 

[Aged_Cheddar]

OK so I have the numbers as of today. (last 50% WC was 10/24)

pH 7.6
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 5
GH 8
KH 9
Fe (Not tested yet...kit in the mail)

So, based on those numbers, the tank is cycled (I figured as much), but I am absolutely amazed the fish are surviving that level of hardness.

So, I went and purchased a couple 7 gallon potable water containers, and headed down to my local Aquarium store, I filled them with RO water, and I'm going to do 5-10% water changes daily or every other day over the next couple weeks, I'm going to attempt to drop that hardness down to something manageable, but I'm taking it slow, I don't want to shock the fish or plants.

I think I'd rather deal with soft water and be able to adjust it, rather than deal with a tank full of basically clear cement...

As far as stocking...looking at the numbers, I'm a little surprised, perhaps the combination of over filtering combined with plants has helps those numbers somewhat? But to be fair, I didn't test the water prior to the 50% water change on Sunday, so who knows, those numbers could be somewhat skewed...I'll test every other day this week and see where the numbers are trending.

I still feel it's overstocked, it doesn't "look" overstocked, but I feel like it is, so I think I'm going to rehome some fish....I really like the Neon Tetras, so they stay, I'm also fond of the Albino Corys, so they stay too, the Cherry barbs are really fun to watch as well...

So that leaves the 4 Pearl Danios & The 2 Dwarf Gourami, rehoming those guys will certainly drop the bioload.

I know the Danios are more hardy than those Neons, but I like the Neons just a bit more, so by softening the water I'm hoping to make life easier for the Neons.

The Barbs & Corys I think will be OK either way.

Thanks for all the info guys!