Help Please

[Zachary1941]

Hi,
Thanks for letting me join the forum...I am new to fish keeping and already have a problem... Have bought a jewell 125 tank, with heater ,Filter, light..Have also bought gravel, fake plants and a smal air pump for extra oxygen .. Now the gravel and all the fake plants were really washed before putting them into the tank.. A slight cloudiness occured but not a lot...Now i decided to go for the FISHLESS CYCLE...so bought a API TEST KIT and after a lot of reading managed to get a bottle of KLEEN OFF for the ammonia....this should arrive tomorrow.. Now here is the problem.. Have read many many articles on cycling and feel confident enough to give it a go, as i wish to do the best i can for when i do get fish...Phoned the fish shop where i am getting the KLEEN OFF to ask what the level of ammonia is in it.. told me 6.5 % .. Was asked if i have any bacteria from another source .. such as a little gravel, water from a established filter sponge etc.. NO I DONT... right .. was told the cycling with ammonia UNLESS I CAN GET A SOURCE OF BACTERIA FROM SOMEWHERE.. IT WILL NOT WORK.. Is this correct please.. I need to get bacteria from somewhere to start the cycling working.. CONFUSED.. Regards Zac

 

[Bobtastic]

You don't "need" mature media/sponge or gravel to start a fishless cycle but would speed it up if you could get your hands on some. If you can you will introduce the right types of Ammonia and Nitrite eating bacteria straight into the tank and therefore the filter, rather than having to wait for them to grow naturally, it would get you going alot quicker.

Thanks to ~waterdrop~ who pretty much answered this question in a different post.

 

[Zachary1941]

You don't "need" mature media/sponge or gravel to start a fishless cycle but would speed it up if you could get your hands on some. If you can you will introduce the right types of Ammonia and Nitrite eating bacteria straight into the tank and therefore the filter, rather than having to wait for them to grow naturally, it would get you going alot quicker.

Thanks to ~waterdrop~ who pretty much answered this question in a different post.

Thank you Bob,
Phoned my fish shop and tomorrow they are going to give me some gravel from one of their tanks.. and the water from a filter squeezed out.. Regards Zac

 

[waterdrop]

All tap water has the required two species of bacteria we need.

The gravel they give you will be most likely to contribute best to your new colony startup if you can fit it somewhere in your filter. If you are worried about mixing media types you can capture it in a bit of sheer stocking or mesh bag to help keep it separate from your other ceramic gravels, ceramic rings or whatever. The beneficial bacteria, which cling tightly to these hard surfaces, are by far the most abundant when they have the constant flow of ammonia and fresh oxygenated water that comes from being inside a filter.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[ellena]

Now here's Q waterdrop. Not trying to be clever, just something I wondered. If the bacteria we need live in the tap water, why do we have to be careful about dechlor so as not to kill them?

 

[Zachary1941]

Now here's Q waterdrop. Not trying to be clever, just something I wondered. If the bacteria we need live in the tap water, why do we have to be careful about dechlor so as not to kill them?

Thanks,
For replies....was also given wrong infor from where i am getting Kleen Off.. Its 9% concentration not 6%...Have already learnt not to believe the fish shop i go .. Would rather ask you guys, and get the correct info ...thanks for replies Regards Zac

 

[weejen]

if u click on the aquarium calculator at the top right of the page you can put your tank size in and it will work out the volume and them has a bit to work out how much amm is needed to dose the tank with that percentage of amm u have. most are usualy 9.5% amm

 

[waterdrop]

Now here's Q waterdrop. Not trying to be clever, just something I wondered. If the bacteria we need live in the tap water, why do we have to be careful about dechlor so as not to kill them?

Hi ellena,

Its a question of numbers of cells I believe. Many of the types of bacteria we discuss here are pretty ubiquitous thoughout the world and you have to work pretty hard just to *not* have them somewhere (eg. sterilization in autoclaves, where we try to eliminate all bacteria, spores, fungi, etc. from something for a period of time for surgery, lab work or whatever...)

Its not hard to have an overly optimistic view of just how pristine your tap water is. What water authorities try to do is to greatly lower the numbers of various pathogens *during delivery* of the water through the pipe system. The chlorine/chloramine that lowers these numbers is added in amounts that represent a trade-off between killing enough germs vs. being harmful to people as chemicals in and of themselves. The amounts are necessarily low and the effect they have on bacteria does not last forever. For humans, though, the job the water authorities do is quite effective, as infection is also a matter of numbers, and each pathogen really has a particular load level it would have to acheive in a human host to get a foothold. Our modern water systems are quite effective at keeping us healthy.

Its debated here on TFF from time to time whether our beneficial bacterial colonies get their start mostly from the incoming tap water or from airborn for surface born transmission. I believe the concensus has been that most of them probably arrive in the tap water, having evaded the system, unlike 99.9% of their brethren. One of the reasons fishless cycling without mature media takes so long is because the number of inoculation cells is usually so tiny, compared to the ending colony sizes.

Yet another debate that has long past threads if you search TFF pertains to the use of dechlor products themselves. I've read these pretty extensively and my own take is that there are very experienced aquarists here on both extremes of the debate. There are those that are careful to dechlor and consider 1.5x,2x dechlor to be helpful in some situations because of unpredictable chlorination levels by authorities. Part of the concern is also for the fish, not just the bacteria. On the other extreme are some very experienced aquarists who commonly do not use dechlor in their water changes, feeling it unnecessary. My personal feeling is that dechlor, even 2x dechlor dosing, is quite a reasonable precaution, especially during the cycling periods of a new tank when the colonies are fragile, but also as far as I know, some of the concerns for chlorine/chloramine exposure to the fish may be justified. On the other hand, I recognize that once bacterial colonies are large and robust and when dealing with large volume tanks, its unlikely that smaller percentage water changes will necessarily be a problem if conditioner is not used. For beginners, I feel its reasonable to advise the use of conditioners.

Bottom line, a lot the answer to your questions lies in the amounts and proportions of things! Hope that helps give some perspective!

~~waterdrop~~

 

[OldMan47]

Ellena, the sample of water that a filter has been cleaned in will be an immediate benefit to your cycle. If you just dump that into a dechlorinated tank and let the filter collect it before you dose ammonia, I would be surprised if it took more than a week for your filter to cycle. It is a technique that I used to kick start 4 filters last Sunday night when I arrived home with new fish and had to find a home for them. I am doing a fish-in cycle on those tanks but cleaned some mature filters in their new homes before I even started to acclimate the fish. I expect all of these new fish to do well but will be keeping an eye on them just in case I need a prompt water change. It has been my experience that I really don't need to do massive water changes because I get enough of a kick start from cleaning an old filter. I am not talking about some minor discoloration in the new tank. When I am done cleaning an old filter, I can't see the tank bottom but by the next day things are usually running great.

 

[ellena]

Comprehensive reply waterdrop! Thanks for that I do love a bit of the science sometimes!
OldMan47-be surprised then! I had a bag of gunk to start mine off-it's been nearly 3 weeks and I'm not even at the dropping in 12hrs stage yet

 

[OldMan47]

Sorry to hear that Ellena. 3 of my 4 filters were taking care of the fish within 2 days. The last one took more like 5 days to get to where I could back off the water changes. I really love it when a plan comes together for me. I don't just use the gunk from a tank, I literally clean a dirty filter in the tank. If you have ever looked at your water bucket after a good filter cleaning, you will know what my tank water looked like shortly before my fish went in.