Help - Given Bad Advise From Lfs (Fish In Uncycled Tank)

[grahamo]

Hi All,
 
Looking for some urgent advise please! New to fish keeping, purchased a brand new 55gal tank and all new equipment about 6 weeks ago from my lfs to house Mbuna Cichlids.
 
I spoke at length with them about what I needed to do to get the tank operational and ready for fish, and followed there instructions exactly - I was told that all I needed to do was to get it all setup, fill it with de-chlorinated tap water, then leave it all running for a couple of weeks, after which I could take them a sample of water and they will test it and tell me if the tank is ready to go.
 
So, in doing what they told me, I allowed the tank to run for the past month, then this weekend I went back to my lfs explained to them everything that had been done and took them a water sample which they tested and told me I was ready for fish, so on Saturday unfortunately upon following their advice I purchased 8 juvenile Mbuna Cichlids for the tank.
 
However, yesterday after doing more research in general I read about cycling and began to realise that the the advise given may have been bad advise as my won’t have cycled yet (which at the time I didn't really understand because the LFS failed to mention this!). After getting in a panick I stopped by yesterday briefly to ask them about it and they said the fish were fine and that the tank would have cycled because of the amount of time it was running for even though everything was new and fish or ammonia source have been added - which temporarily re-assured me - but after doing more research I now do not believe this to be true and belive my tank is un-cycled and at some point very soon things are going to go bad. I presume I am understanding that correctly and the LFS is wrong?
 
 
So, here is my dilemma, what should I do? As of this morning the levels are all ok and the fish have been in for 48 hours, but I presume this wont last long?
 
I really don’t want to put the fish through un-due stress and the significant damage by leaving them in, I would just feel too bad about it unless there is a way to mitigate this? Would getting hold of some tank water and filter media from somewhere else thats already established help or would the fish still suffer?
 
Otherwise I am planning to go back to the LFS after work today and see if the will take them back or hold on to them for me temporarily, giving me the opportunity to work out how to undertake the cycle without using fish and sort this out before putting them back in.
 
Would appreciate any advise on what to do here? Am very stressed out over it and no longer trust the lfs
 
 
Thanks so much in advanced.

 

[fluttermoth]

I'm in a bit of a hurry, sorry, but as a first port of call, I would suggest you have a read of the three pinned threads, in this sub forum, by Two Tank Amin; he's the cycle expert, and you should get all the information you need from there.
 
Post back, in this thread, if you need more help or things aren't clear to you, and someone will be around to advise you

 

[grahamo]

Many thanks for the reply, but the link doesn't seem to work - it takes me to some weird infolinks page.

 

[Munroco]

I'm not sure you have a dilemna. Your water tests are ok, your fish are ok, I think your worrying too much. You've only put 8 smallish fish in a good size tank. I think this will complete your cycle without putting any stress on the fish. Give it a week or so to be sure before adding any more would be my opinion.
 
I'll probably get shot down for saying this, but I think we overcomplicate things like Tank Cycling sometimes..

http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/277264-beginners-resource-center/
 
I think this is the link

 

[LyraGuppi]

+1 on Munroco.
 
They explained a way of cycling that is verrryyy simplified, and the Mbunas will do a sort of fish-in cycle. Just watch the fish's behaviour and the stats.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

grahamo,
 
 
Its going to take a lot of testing and water changes.  
 
Step one... limit your feeding.  The fish will do best dealing with ammonia if they are fed, BUT the more they are fed, the more ammonia they produce.
 
Step two... test, test, test... keep a journal.  Use this link to determine the free ammonia: http/www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/FreeAmmonia.php  You need the free ammonia to stay under 0.05ppm.  Some will focus on the 'total' ammomia, but it is really the NH3, not the NH3+NH4 combined.  
 
Step 3... water changes are the best way to lower ammonia and nitrite to keep the fish alive.  Large water changes will lower it better than anything else.  And are ultimately less stressful than lots of changes.  1 90% water change will lower total ammonia from 1 ppm to 0.1ppm, whereas 2 50% water change will only lower total ammonia from 1ppm to 0.25ppm and use more water, take more time, and ultimately be less effective.
 
 
 
Keep us updated and we can help you through this.  Or, return the fish to the LFS and do a proper fishless cycle and get the fish again once the tank is 'truly' ready.

Here's the links to the articles you need to focus on:
 
 
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/433769-rescuing-a-fish-in-cycle-gone-wild-part-i/
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/433778-rescuing-a-fish-in-cycle-gone-wild-part-il/

 

[Ch4rlie]

LFS do give out bad advice. Thought most LFS ARE getting better but room for improvement shall we say.
 
First of all, I would suggest you get a water testing kit if you have not already have one.
Recommend a water based testing kit, not paper dip strip kind.
API FW Master Test Kit is a popular kit amongst many fish keepers here.
 
You may not be that badly off in terms of cycling since you left the tank water for a month so hopefully you will have built up some bacteria in that tank as well as in filter but doubt you will have any nitrifying bacteria since there has been no ammonia added.
 
Thirdly, as Eagles has mentioned testing the tank water and doing large water changes during the weeks is going to be essential to know if your water is being cycled or not. 
 
So you will be basically be doing what is called a Fish In Cycle if you cannot return or get your LFS to temporally hold your mbuna cichlids. And lastly, have a read of these two links below, they will help you understand the process and what is involved.
 
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/433769-rescuing-a-fish-in-cycle-gone-wild-part-i/
 
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/433778-rescuing-a-fish-in-cycle-gone-wild-part-il/
 
 
However, if your LFS is willing to hold your mbuna cichlids then you will want to follow this link instead :
 
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/421488-cycling-your-new-fresh-water-tank-read-this-first/
 
(these are the three articles in which Fluttermoth was referring to )
 
And lastly, good luck

 

[Gruntle]

Welcome to the "I got bad advice from my LFS" club, I think most of us are members.
 
Apart from what everyone has already said, there are a couple more options that can help. If you have any friends who have a cycled tank, ask if you can swap some of your filter material (pads, wool, ceramics, bioballs etc) for theirs. If you take no more than a third, their tank should have no issues, and your tank gets an instant kick-along with a fair sized bacteria colony.  Secondly, if you can, and if you want, buy some live aquatic plants. Not only do they use ammonia from the water, they also should have bacteria attached, which will also help colonise your tank.
 
Fish-in cycling is not the end of the world, but it's a little more time consuming and worrying than a fishless cycle.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Not sure your experience Gruntle, but cichlids and plants generally don't mix well.  The fish have a tendency to destroy them.  There are some that you can get away with, like anubias, but they won't add much ammonia use.

 

[fish48]

[SIZE=10.5pt] The LFS[/SIZE] [SIZE=10.5pt]did not give out bad advice. They simply gave advice on fish-in cycle[/SIZE] although the best way to  to start off with  would be 3 or 4 fish . 

 

[grahamo]

Thanks all for all the replies. In the end I decided it would be best to do a fishless cycle took and managed to take the fish back to the lfs, which they were very accommodating with.
 
Now I just need to work out where to get some ammonia and how to do the cycle.
 
Thanks again to all.

 

[fluttermoth]

[SIZE=10.5pt] The LFS[/SIZE] [SIZE=10.5pt]did not give out bad advice. They simply gave advice on fish-in cycle[/SIZE] although the best way to  to start off with  would be 3 or 4 fish . 

 
Unfortunately, you can't keep mbuna like that; due to aggression, you have to overstock these fish. If you started with a small number, they'd just attack, and very likely kill each other

 
 

Thanks all for all the replies. In the end I decided it would be best to do a fishless cycle took and managed to take the fish back to the lfs, which they were very accommodating with.
 
Now I just need to work out where to get some ammonia and how to do the cycle.
 
Thanks again to all.

 That's great. I believe Homebase and Robert Dyas are the most likely places to find ammonia, although it can be hard to source in shops (it can be used to make explosives, I've been told). It is very easily available online though

 

[eaglesaquarium]

 

[SIZE=10.5pt] The LFS[/SIZE] [SIZE=10.5pt]did not give out bad advice. They simply gave advice on fish-in cycle[/SIZE] although the best way to  to start off with  would be 3 or 4 fish . 

 
Unfortunately, you can't keep mbuna like that; due to aggression, you have to overstock these fish. If you started with a small number, they'd just attack, and very likely kill each other

 
 
I would add that while at one time the advice was not 'bad', I believe that with what we now know about the cycling process and how it can be done effectively and efficiently without the use of fish, that it is currently bad advice to give to a beginner to do a fish-in cycle.
 
 
For someone who has been keeping fish for a long time, I believe that a proper fish in cycle can be done with virtually no ill effects on the fish, in either the short or the long term.  But, a proper fish in cycle needs to be done by someone who truly understands the intricacies of the nitrogen cycle.  That is not beginner territory.  A beginner will more than likely make a mistake somewhere along the lines, and the fish ultimately will be the ones to pay the price.  In a fishless cycle, any mistake made will just delay the fish arriving, and only time is lost, not money or livestock.  
 
 
Just my two cents.

 

[l_l_l]

Good on you for returning the fish.
It must be really hard to see the fish swimming in your tank that was empty for a month, simply to return them next day.
You will be happy to know that once you do a fishless cycle tho, you won't live the stress of having sick fish and daily water changes.