Heat Treatment Alone?

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Featheryfish

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Hey y'all. B-)

I'm looking at my fish log here, and in the morning on August 12th my sailfin molly was flashing and I found 2 small spots of ich on his fins. I knew he and the other rescue fish had had ich and been haphazardly treated with a random ich medication a month or two before I got them, so I've been examining them up close every day in case it decided to make a comeback, usually with my phone flashlight or a bendy table lamp if they're willing.

I cranked up the heat to 86-88 degrees (a couple degrees at a time of course) right away and everyone responded well to that. It made them very hungry but nothing else unusual. I lowered my water level a couple extra inches so the HOB would be extra splashy for oxygenation. After a couple days of the heat and water changes, a few more spots of ich emerged, a couple on the tetras but most on the molly's fins. They quickly fell off.

After I felt they'd adjusted to the heat I tried dosing them with some Ich-X (I calculated the gallons in the my tank minus the lower water line, the sand, the driftwood, etc. so I didn't overdose them - I also used the unusual Hikari water conditioner that is supposed to go with it) and they didn't respond as gracefully. The molly and tetras were okay but the catfish seemed vaguely disgruntled. I kept an eye on them and after the second dose they seemed very stressed and lost some of their body clarity so I've water changed most of the medicine out. That seems to have to perked them back up a bit.

I doubt the glass catfish would like salt either - what little there is to read about them suggests they don't tolerate salt any better than they do medication, or perhaps even worse. I'd be really hesitant to expose them to a second novel substance so soon, anyway. I read that tetras and salt are an iffy combination, too.

At this moment there is no visible ich and no one is flashing or exhibiting other symptoms. Can I beat ich with high heat and water changes alone, considering it's mild and I caught it early? Has anyone actually beat it with ONLY consistent high heat (above 85 degrees)? I've heard some people say the heat "only speeds it up" but that does not seem to be consistent with information I've read about ich's inability to reproduce, divide, and infect fish at that temperature.

I've been doing my water changes with ~90 degree water to make sure it doesn't dip. In between uses I've been taking my buckets, tools and python cleaner outside on the patio to dry in the 110 degree sun for a few hours, is that and a good double rinsing with hot tap water enough to keep things sterile? Last thing I want to do is put the ich back in.

I'm working on setting up a second tank just for the glass catfish but that won't be ready for about a month, so whatever I do has to work for all the fish. If anyone thinks it's a good idea (I have no idea whether it's a good idea or not) I could theoretically give a salt bath to just the molly, since he was the only one that ever had multiple spots and is probably patient zero. And, you know, he's a molly, so I imagine salt is unlikely to kill him.

They seemed to be doing such a good job fighting it off themselves with only heat and clean water but I'm afraid of doing something foolish and winding up with a tank full of ich because I didn't medicate when I had the chance. On the other hand, I don't want dead catfish. I suppose it's possible their stress discoloration was a delayed reaction to the heat, but I'm 90% sure the medication was the problem since we were doing so well before that. Hopefully I'm not cooking them.

Anyway, I'd appreciate hearing from anyone who has used or tried to use high heat to treat ich. Oh, and if anyone is shopping for an affordable heater that doesn't suck or fall apart immediately, I'm really impressed with this Fluval M and would recommend it. It's hot stuff. Looks like they are still being made in Italy.
 
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You shouldn't use chemical medications when raising the temperature because the combination of high temperature and chemicals can reduce the oxygen levels to very low concentrations and cause the fish to suffocate.

Most chemical medications should only be used at half strength for scaleless fishes like catfish, loaches and eels.

If catfish are stressing out when you use chemicals, you have overdosed them and they need a water change immediately.

-------------------------
On this website, Whitespot is normally treated with high temperature only. Get the water temperature to 30C (86F) and keep it there for 2 weeks. Then reduce the temperature.

Make sure you increase aeration/ surface turbulence to maximise the oxygen levels in the warmer water.

Do a 75% water change and gravel clean the substrate before raising the temperature.

The following link has information about whitespot and different ways to treat it. The first post on page 1 and second post on page 2 are worth a read.
https://www.fishforums.net/threads/what-is-ich.7092/
 
The heat is all you need for ich. As Seangee said, 2 weeks.
 
You shouldn't use chemical medications when raising the temperature because the combination of high temperature and chemicals can reduce the oxygen levels to very low concentrations and cause the fish to suffocate.

Most chemical medications should only be used at half strength for scaleless fishes like catfish, loaches and eels.

If catfish are stressing out when you use chemicals, you have overdosed them and they need a water change immediately.

-------------------------
On this website, Whitespot is normally treated with high temperature only. Get the water temperature to 30C (86F) and keep it there for 2 weeks. Then reduce the temperature.

Make sure you increase aeration/ surface turbulence to maximise the oxygen levels in the warmer water.

Do a 75% water change and gravel clean the substrate before raising the temperature.

The following link has information about whitespot and different ways to treat it. The first post on page 1 and second post on page 2 are worth a read.
https://www.fishforums.net/threads/what-is-ich.7092/

I tried to create a lot of surface turbulence because I knew both of those things could reduce the oxygen capacity of the water, plus the tank is less than 50% stocked relative to surface area. I'm a little dubious that low oxygen was what bothered the catfish - they weren't breathing fast or hard, they weren't slow or lethargic, and they were not hanging out at the top or gasping. I think it was simply poisonous to them in a more direct way, but what do I know.

I'd much rather use no medicine at all than a half-dose, sounds like a good way to create resistant super ich. I wouldn't give my dog half an antibiotic pill, that's for sure.

I did a majority water change before raising the temperature and when I removed the medicine, and a 30% water change every day besides that so :good:I had also started taking all my driftwood and any plants that are moveable out during water changes so I can vacuum the sand extra thoroughly. Thanks for the link to other helpful posts, I will read them.
 
I've had a really, really sad day here. My molly and my tetras are still doing super stellar and there is no sign of the ich, but despite water changing out all the medication half of my glass catfish did not make it through last night. I put them in a clove oil solution for half an hour just to make extra sure they were 100% dead and not suffering, then I buried them under a tree.

The remaining three look okay. They haven't turned white at least. Particularly the "original" glass catfish that I got with my batch of rescue fish looks perfectly fine. He's a tough cookie, and he's probably survived worse before.

I feel awful. The last thing I wanted to do was kill my fish. I read many assurances that the Ich-X should be quite safe even for fragile and scaleless fish, and that it could be used with heat. I certainly didn't think one or two careful doses would execute them outright. I guess it was all too much for them.

I hope I can at least learn something from this - I certainly won't be putting any amount of any medication on glass catfish ever again, no matter what the bottle or the internet says. I'm going back to my original water conditioner, just in case that had anything to do with it. As soon as I get my 30 gallon running I will put any surviving catfish in there and always keep them species-only so they can be managed separately from hardier fish. They seem to really love strong water flow, so I'll get them a little Koralia powerhead as soon as I can afford it.

As much as it intimidates me to think of getting more of these guys, I'll also try to aim for a school of 12 or so next time in hopes of increasing their comfort and resilience. They seem to really love their friends - that made this extra tragic, the surviving ones were nudging their lifeless buddies and feeling them with their barbels as if they were trying to wake them up. :byebye: I don't want them to be stressed due to loneliness. Assuming the remaining ones make it, that is... if not, I'll just to stick to something hardier and more forgiving, like a betta or some danios.

I tried my best. At least I caught the ich early and am well on the way to wiping it out before it had a chance to wipe out my whole tank. Sorry I let you down, fishies. :rip:
 
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Well... right after I posted that I went ahead and did a small water change with an extra big dose of the original water conditioner mixed in. The possibly of the new water conditioner being at fault sort of occurred to me as I was writing that post. An hour later, my remaining glass catfish are already way more peppy. Like, dramatically so. The other fish increased their activity level as well.

I don't want to say anything bad about the Hikari water conditioner, because I'm sure others have used it successfully. Maybe there is something particular or weird in my tap water that it can't neutralize. Or maybe it doesn't work as quickly as the other water conditioner - I let the buckets sit for 15 to 30 minutes, maybe it needed longer. Maybe it doesn't work well in warmer water, or very hard water. I don't know.

Every time I was changing their water trying to get the Ich-X out, I was probably just killing them faster. :-( Hopefully they will recover now. They're zipping around at the moment. We'll see.
 
Do you aerate the tap water and dechlorinator while it sits in the buckets for 15-30 minutes?
Dechlorinators neutralise chlorine/ chloramine as soon as they come in contact with it. However, you need to mix the solution up for a bit to ensure all the chlorine molecules have been neutralised. If you don't mix it up, then some of the chlorine will be neutralised but most won't.

I recommend aerating the buckets of tap water and dechlorinator for 30 minutes before adding that water to the tank. The aeration helps mix the dechlorinator and water together properly so all the chlorine is neutralised. It also helps get the dissolves gasses back to normal levels in the water. When water is under pressure (like in the pipes), the gasses in it can be forced out. Aerating the water allows the nitrogen, carbon dioxide and oxygen gasses back in at normal levels so the water is safer for the fish.
 
Do you aerate the tap water and dechlorinator while it sits in the buckets for 15-30 minutes?
Dechlorinators neutralise chlorine/ chloramine as soon as they come in contact with it. However, you need to mix the solution up for a bit to ensure all the chlorine molecules have been neutralised. If you don't mix it up, then some of the chlorine will be neutralised but most won't.

I recommend aerating the buckets of tap water and dechlorinator for 30 minutes before adding that water to the tank. The aeration helps mix the dechlorinator and water together properly so all the chlorine is neutralised. It also helps get the dissolves gasses back to normal levels in the water. When water is under pressure (like in the pipes), the gasses in it can be forced out. Aerating the water allows the nitrogen, carbon dioxide and oxygen gasses back in at normal levels so the water is safer for the fish.

I was just giving it a good stirring with big kitchen spoon, then pouring it into the tank, slowly from a big cup, through a colander, from rather high up, 'cause that's what I had on hand to work with. This seemed adequate, if not overkill, with the original water conditioner - but perhaps not the Hikari. :(

To be honest for the first few days of using that original water conditioner, I only gave it four or five minutes to sit and dumped it directly out of a 2.5 gallon bucket all at once and the fish had no complaints. The bottle said "instant" and I didn't quite buy that, so I at least gave it a bit. Then I read that 15+ minutes was even better so I started waiting longer and swishing it around first. I didn't really notice a difference in the fish between those two methods but I figured it was only a little extra work and couldn't hurt.

I will see about getting some airstones, but I will also definitely stick with the conditioner that gave me more margin for error since I am new at this and bound to screw up. Thank you very much for the tip, obviously I need all the help I can get...

*goes to Amazon.com to mournfully browse airstones*
 
Look for plastic multi-coloured airstones. They can be taken apart and cleaned and last longer than sand based airstones, which block up quickly. The plastic multi-coloured ones also put less back pressure on the air pump so the pump lasts longer.
 
Look for plastic multi-coloured airstones. They can be taken apart and cleaned and last longer than sand based airstones, which block up quickly. The plastic multi-coloured ones also put less back pressure on the air pump so the pump lasts longer.

You have prevented me from ordering a sandy airstone in the nick of time. Plastic it is. Thank you.

Yeah, I guess I'm going to stay awake tonight ordering aeration equipment and staring at my catfish willing them to not die... so far they're cooperating, they continue to improve rapidly now that they are not being burned with chlorine... unsurprisingly...
 
You have prevented me from ordering a sandy airstone in the nick of time. Plastic it is. Thank you.

Yeah, I guess I'm going to stay awake tonight ordering aeration equipment and staring at my catfish willing them to not die... so far they're cooperating, they continue to improve rapidly now that they are not being burned with chlorine... unsurprisingly...
I’m so sorry for your loss. You did everything with the best intentions. We have all been there.
 
The reason the remaining fish "perked up" was the water change, not likely the conditioner used. The first thing to do when you recognize a problem is a major water change. I have solved unknown issues many times. Reduce any stress and do water changes.

The problem seems to have been the chemical treatments. All so-called ich remedies are harmful to many fish. Heat will usually work, and in very stubborn cases aquarium salt. Most fish (there are exceptions) will tolerate these individually or together much better than any of the medication/treatment chemicals. This advice was given to me by Neale Monks a few years ago.

Some conditioners are better than others, not so much due to their de-chlorination but more to what is not in them. I have been using API's Tap Water Conditioner for several years now, and will use no other. It is highly concentrated so you use less to do the job (this avoids excess chemicals getting inside fish), and it only tackles what is generally needed--chlorine, chloramine if you have this, and heavy metals. The latter may not be needed, but most every conditioner detoxifies heavy metals (I have only come across two that don't) and it is perhaps wise to have this feature as copper or iron can be issues in some areas or with newer house plumbing if copper. Some other conditioners have extracts of this and that which are known to be detrimental if not downright harmful long-term. And unless you have source water issues with ammonia/nitrite/nitrate you do not need conditioners that mess with these.
 
The reason the remaining fish "perked up" was the water change, not likely the conditioner used. The first thing to do when you recognize a problem is a major water change. I have solved unknown issues many times. Reduce any stress and do water changes.

The problem seems to have been the chemical treatments. All so-called ich remedies are harmful to many fish. Heat will usually work, and in very stubborn cases aquarium salt. Most fish (there are exceptions) will tolerate these individually or together much better than any of the medication/treatment chemicals. This advice was given to me by Neale Monks a few years ago.

The "small water change that perked them up" was only about 2 gallons with a bunch of the conditioner that was working for me mixed in. It was not the water, they've been getting new water galore day and night, it was the conditioner or I'm a silly corncob . :band:

I described doing water changes in the earlier post. They got a water change when they seemed to become distressed after the treatment and then more water changes until probably less than 5 or 10% of the medicated water was left. The directions on the ich medication included doing a large water change with the Hikari conditioner immediately before dosing it and then that's what I continued using for water changes. Unfortunately.

Since so many people have successfully treated even fragile, scaleless fish and tanks including invertebrates with the Ich-X (that's why I bought it) I should have turned my suspicion to the water conditioner sooner. I'm sure the extra strain of medication did not help the ones that were dying, but I have a feeling they would have tolerated it fine if they hadn't also been getting the life sucked out of them by improperly prepared water. I used it on the advice of someone I'd been chatting with elsewhere who has kept fish for over 30 years and never had this medication harm a scaleless fish.

The last thing I did before going to bed the night the 3 fish croaked was do either another 30% or a 50% water change, I don't remember! I think that did them in. The remaining ones are still kicking this morning, probably thanks to water that's now actually de-chlorinated all the way.

I like you, Byron, and you are full of knowledge, but kindly do not question my diligence with water changes, I have hauled way too many buckets to put up with that! o_O
 
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I’m so sorry for your loss. You did everything with the best intentions. We have all been there.

Thank you, Deanasue... I really miss the little guys, when I turned the light on this morning and saw only three catfish bundled up in a tiny school I couldn't help but cry. I can't believe I killed half of them even though I was trying so hard. One of the ones I lost was much more exploratory than the others, he would always be the first to cruise across the tank alone and stick his head into new hidey holes. We called him Adventure Fish - it won't be the same without him.

You take care and have a lovely day now. :wub:
 

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