Hardness Causing Fish Deaths?

[ellena]

I have a thread in emergencies, but Wilder has advised coming over here with this latest query.
In sept, I had a mass die off in my tanks. Unidentified disease. One fish looked like it really wasn't going to make it, but pulled through.
Around xmas, he got really skinny and died. Since then 3 more have died with the same symptoms and I have one now not looking great.
The 4 who got skinny looked like this

They start off with a dazed look and waggling swim. Still eating. Their jaw starts to protrude (or behind the jaw sinks in)Then they start spitting food out, then stop eating altogether. All the while getting thinner and eventually dying. I have tried sterazin, king british diease free and a nematode worm treatment.

The lastest one looks like this

and is still alive today although hasn't eaten for 3 days and is still fat with the sunken jaw. Doesn't have the dazed look, still fairly active-I tried to catch him and failed.
Fish TB has been suggested although there is no sign of the dark irises. I have been in touch with a vet to see if tests could be done to confirm this either way. They put me in touch with what turned out to be a LFS and she was convinced it was hard water. I've tested mine again and got the same results as last time kH 5deg, gH 17deg, using this chart from the kit

I'm quite happy to try softening the water but I'd rather not be faffing with it all the time. Surely all LFS near me and local fishkeepers would have similar problems? Shop advising isn't that local.
Anyone any experience of adverse effects from hard water?

 

[mattlee]

ive got 3 male endlers in my shrimp tank in medium/hard alkaline water with no problems.....

 

[ellena]

Yes, I'm sure many do, that's why I wasn't convinced. Off to check pH...

 

[ellena]

Hmmm it's 8-8.2 with API liquid high pH kit. Running an ammonia check now as that's higher than it has been. Tap is 7.2-7.4 ish.

 

[mattlee]

Yes, I'm sure many do, that's why I wasn't convinced. Off to check pH...

just to add my pH is 7.9-8.0.

ive had the endlers for about 4 months now

 

[ellena]

Thanks Matt Ammonia is as near to 0 as I can tell in artificial light, so I wonder why the pH in the tank is so high? Plastic plants, sand substrate, tiny bit of driftwood and a sandstone arch in there.

 

[mattlee]

Thanks Matt Ammonia is as near to 0 as I can tell in artificial light, so I wonder why the pH in the tank is so high? Plastic plants, sand substrate, tiny bit of driftwood and a sandstone arch in there.

what does the pH normally read? have you checked the tap water?

 

[ellena]

I have just checked the spreadsheet I kept with stats on from fishless cycling and I'm ashamed to say I haven't got a record of pH since I put the fish in
Just checked tap, it's 7.2-7.4 ish.
With the low kH, so low buffering capacity, I'd expect pH to go down, but not up.

 

[mattlee]

I have just checked the spreadsheet I kept with stats on from fishless cycling and I'm ashamed to say I haven't got a record of pH since I put the fish in
Just checked tap, it's 7.2-7.4 ish.
With the low kH, so low buffering capacity, I'd expect pH to go down, but not up.

there is defo something pushing the pH up then....

is the sand stone ornament new? could it be this......?

did i read you had a sand stone ornament as i cant find it now..........

 

[mattlee]

ok found it

is the sand aquatic sand and have you used this type before?

 

[fatheadminnow]

As oxygen is supplied to water, as it is when water is in the tank, and there is surface agitation. Also, water in a tank is under less pressure then the water in the water lines. All this leads to gassing off of Co2.

When Co2 gasses off, the pH increases. This is what you are seeing in your tank; and yes it will go up that much.

When we pump Co2 into your planted aquariums, the extra Co2 usually drives our pH down below the 7.0 mark, then back up to around 8.0 when the gas is off. At least this is the case in my tank.

Since the pH is changing due to carbonic acid, the pH swings does not effect the fish or bacteria.

-FHM

 

[ellena]

It is aquatic sand, comes in small bags with a pic of a fish, a parrot and a lizard on I think. Aqua pac maybe? This is my first tank and I have used it in a betta tank too with no problems. It was in the tank through the fishless cycle and I often had pH crashes then, down to 6 and less. The ornament has been in all that time too.

Thanks for a bit of science fhm So you're saying you would always expect pH in a tank to be higher than tap, unless you're using CO[sub]2[/sub]?

 

[fatheadminnow]

Correct.

99% of the time, pH in a tank is higher than what it is from the tap.

As Co2 gasses off, the pH goes up.

-FHM

 

[OldMan47]

It can be a problem having the pH bounce up like that. I would try doing a large, maybe 50%, water change and see what the water looks like the next day. If you have a high pH as the result of sand or ornaments interacting with the water, the large water change should help you reset your chemistry closer to tap water. Although the tap water you have is fairly high in GH, mine is almost that high and my endlers are thriving in it. My KH also runs in the 10 degree range with a pH of around 7.8 from the tap or in the tank.

 

[ellena]

Thanks SO I can be fairly sure she was talking rubbish then. She seemed genuine enough, wasn't try to sell me stuff from her shop, just reccommending products. She said she was always surprised that it wasn't something people considered esp. with the damage the hard water minerals do to internal organs, acting as they do, like salt?