Hard water community, 20 gal?

[Chickadee]

I've been researching this online but need help narrowing my focus. Here is my long list: endlers, cherry barbs, pepper cory, otos. Guppies, maybe. Not really interested in goldfish or platys. Worried the water will be too hard for mystery snails. Is the nerite a better choice? Other suggestions? I want peaceful fish that would hopefully leave snails alone. Am I asking for too much? What concessions will I have to make with my water hardness and tank size?

 

[Essjay]

Remind us please - how hard is 'hard'?

 

[Chickadee]

Remind us please - how hard is 'hard'?

On the strips I was using, it's at the highest reading (purple) 180 ppm, but I was told it could be even higher than that. I had a hard time finding the liquid test and finally found it at Walmart, of all places. Should be here in a few days and then I can get an accurate reading.

 

[gimme30]

Unless you want hard to remove eggs all over the place skip the nerites if you can't be sure you're getting a male. Snails (of any type) do well in hard water so a Mystery snail would be fine. And they're much more interesting to watch anyway.

Here's the thing with hard water. If you google it, search youtube, or ask at forums-even this one-you're going to get the same list of 10-15 different fish ad nauseum. Which is fine if all you're after are "mainstream" or common fishies. Everyone claims there's hundreds of species that work in hard water but can't name any past those 10 or 15. There are, but you've got to dig deeper. The easiest way to narrow things down is to research the areas a fish might come from and eliminate those that are acidic or soft water locales. Pay attention to adult size while you're at it, many of what you'll find grow too large for a 20 gallon tank.

Or, there's another option.
Ignore conventional wisdom and get whatever you want. Short of something like discus that absolutely requires soft water, fish adapt. I'll catch all kinds of flack over this but the claims of shortened lifespans or organ damage or insert-whatever-sky-is-falling-scenario are greatly exaggerated in my experience. Unless we're talking a KH significantly above 18 I've never seen proof that any of that is true.

 

[GaryE]

Or, there's another option.
Ignore conventional wisdom and get whatever you want. Short of something like discus that absolutely requires soft water, fish adapt. I'll catch all kinds of flack over this but the claims of shortened lifespans or organ damage or insert-whatever-sky-is-falling-scenario are greatly exaggerated in my experience. Unless we're talking a KH significantly above 18 I've never seen proof that any of that is true.

I'll send some flak Gimme's way. Conventional wisdom is what he offers. It always says fish adapt to your water. Relatively recently, some aquarists, who tend to be into it enough to frequent forums, have challenged that. We know some fish can adapt to conditions outside their range, although they'll do so with physical stress. Discus aren't special - they're just big and expensive, and what happens to them happens with a lot of smaller fish from the same types of habitats too. You're always better off to match the fish and the water. You don't have to, and you can always find people who take the conventional point of view. You'll find people on both sides of the debate and in between, and you'll find your own place on that spectrum.

The commerce in fish filters out the ones with extreme needs. You get those standard 15 species because they have shown an ability to stay alive in poor conditions for them, as well as excellent ones. If you read a thread where people are discussing fish beyond the very few you'd find in a chain pet store, you'll probably get a discussion of water needs.

If you find a discussion that says goldfish for a 20 gallon, it isn't to be considered. They are very large fish (in potential), and unless you kill them, they'll grow.

 

[Chickadee]

Good to know about nerites! Mystery snails eggs are very easy to spot and remove.

I'm making a trip to my LFS today to get plants. I'll talk to him about this as well and see what fish he suggests and has available. That might help to narrow my choices.

I also got my 10 gallon going. I might make this a softer water tank for the fish that can't tolerate the hardness. Any opinions on using an API water softener pillow?

 

[gwand]

Good to know about nerites! Mystery snails eggs are very easy to spot and remove.

I'm making a trip to my LFS today to get plants. I'll talk to him about this as well and see what fish he suggests and has available. That might help to narrow my choices.

I also got my 10 gallon going. I might make this a softer water tank for the fish that can't tolerate the hardness. Any opinions on using an API water softener pillow?

If you’re going to alter water in a small 10 gallon tank, I suggest you buy distilled water and bring it to the proper GH by mixing with your tapwater. Alternatively, if you can afford it, purchase an RO system.

 

[Back in the fold]

Or, there's another option.
Ignore conventional wisdom and get whatever you want. Short of something like discus that absolutely requires soft water, fish adapt. I'll catch all kinds of flack over this but the claims of shortened lifespans or organ damage or insert-whatever-sky-is-falling-scenario are greatly exaggerated in my experience. Unless we're talking a KH significantly above 18 I've never seen proof that any of that is true.

This approach has worked very well for me in the past when I went through my phase of wanting to have every fish I saw . I’ve settled down to a couple favorite fish now and no longer experiment but I have had fish that should not have worked for me but even thrived .

 

[gimme30]

I'll send some flak Gimme's way

As if you'd ever let the chance pass you by

@Chickadee Gwand mentioned the common ways of softening water and unfortunately they're really the only viable options. You could add peat moss, woods like Malaysian driftwood that are high in tannins, and things like Indian almond leaves, but these make gradual changes over time. I've never used the API product but reviews seem to be favorable. Either way it's going to cost you to soften your water so you might want to price the various options to see which fits best into your budget. Your LFS may sell RO too so check on that.

 

[Chickadee]

I have looked a bit into RO systems. I'm guessing the biggest expense would be in the installation. The over-the-counter ones are cheaper, but wouldn't it take forever to get enough to fill a tank? It will depend on how serious I plan to get with this. I am going to try the API water softener pillow in one tank and see how things go.

I went to my LFS yesterday. The girl was very knowledgeable. She said the African fish tend to do best in hard water and showed me several. She then pointed to a dwarf crayfish and said they tolerate hard water fairly well. Cutest thing I ever saw, like a little lobster. I must have that crayfish!

 

[Essjay]

I am going to try the API water softener pillow in one tank and see how things go.

The API water softener pillow swaps the hardness minerals for sodium - it has to be recharged using salt, sodium chloride. Many house water softeners also work this way.
Despite the pillows being made by API, adding salt to a freshwater aquarium on a long term basis is not recommended. Salt (sodium) is OK for a couple of weeks to treat some illnesses but for no longer than 4 weeks.


With hard water, the only way to make is softer is by using pure water such as RO or distilled. Or keep hard water fish.
Since you don't know exactly how hard your water is yet, now is the time to research. If your hardness turns out to be 180 ppm (the highest the test strips can read), it would be too soft for a lot of hard water fish. Seriously Fish is the best website for research, see what fish you like the looks of and their hardness ranges so once you know your GH you'll know which species are suitable.

Seriously Fish · 1,810 freshwater species

Water parameters, tank size, origin and cited sources for 1,810 freshwater species. Quite serious about fish.

www.seriouslyfish.com

She said the African fish tend to do best in hard water

Be careful with this comment by the store worker. Fish from the Rift Lakes are hard water fish, those from African rivers are usually soft water fish. And with Rift Lake fish, only fish from the same lake should be kept in the same tank.

 

[Chickadee]

I used the Seriously Fish search. Using the parameters of 7.6 - 8.6 pH, 10-11.5 dgh hardness, it gave me 8 fish:

Beaufortia kweichowensis 'Butterfly Loach'
Beaufortia szechuansis
Erromyzon sp. 'ERO1'
Erromyzon sp. 'ERO2'
Iksookimia pumila
Inlecypris maetaengensis Fire Bar 'Danio'
Iriatherina werneri 'Threadfin Rainbowfish'
Petruichthys sp. 'rosy' Rosy Loach

I'm eliminating the loaches since I heard they are aggressive to snails. This is a little discouraging

 

[gimme30]

I must have that crayfish!

Lol I know the feeling; they're funny little beasties.

 

[Chickadee]

My GH/KH test kit came today.

Straight out of the tap:
GH required 19 drops
KH required 16 drops
The conversion chart on the package only goes up to 12! How do I figure out the ppm beyond 12?

20 gal tank with distilled added:
GH 16
I didn't test for KH

10 gal tank with distilled added:
GH 11
I didn't test for KH
This one had more distilled added.

Is this habitable for any fish or invertebrates? Buying jugs of distilled water is going to be a huge pain. Maybe a little more manageable for the 10 gal. I'm going to try the water pillow. I know I was advised against it, and I will be cautious. The alternative is to either drain the tanks and give up the hobby before I've even started, or pay to have an RO system installed, which I can't afford to do right now.

I'm gutted

 

[Essjay]

How do I figure out the ppm beyond 12?

Use the calculator on here

Calculator

That's very hard water. You'll need to do another search on Seriously Fish, I've had a quick look and there are a lot of species though many aren't suitable for your tank size.