Guppy Fry 'n' Betta | Disease/deformed?

[x2p]

Sorry for the length

I forgot to install an intro. I am Alex, started up with a 15 gallon tank 5 weeks ago and now own another 15 gal and a few other smaller tanks.

All my tanks are planted with real plants. My main fish are guppies but I have a clown pleco, 5 kuhli loaches, and a ton of guppy fry. I also own a betta which you will hear about below.

Tank size: 2.5-5-15 Gallons (will be explained later in the post)
pH:6.5-7
tank temp: 28-26.5-26(will be explained later in the post)

Fish Symptoms (include full description including lesion, color, location, fish behavior): Clamped fins (all?) , drilling head into ground

Volume and Frequency of water changes: 1/week 20%

Chemical Additives or Media in your tank:no chemicals only added medicine (more info below)

Tank inhabitants: more info below, down to 4

Recent additions to your tank (living or decoration): more info below

Exposure to chemicals: n/a



The following I am unable to answer but I will do my best in the paragraphs that follow. The issue is just for ammonia test strips it costs well over 40$ (6 strips) and other tests cost far more...the LFS isnt much better
ammonia:
nitrite:
nitrate:
kH:
gH:

Lets start from the begining. A good 3-4 weeks ago I had my first guppy fry.

In order to save them I put them in a brand new 2.5 Gallon tank (ran at around 28C). I used a bit of mature filter media and had it running for a week and a half. The tank began to smell so bad of sulfur, I was forced to restart it. I did and put the fish back in.

After a week I bought a second 15 gallon (I already own a 15 gallon community) and set it up and let it run for a week.

I decided to use the poor fry in the little 2.5 gallon to cycle the new 15 gallon tank. It runs at 26.5C. When I moved them I noticed their tails were clamped, and either their dorsal fins and gonopodiums/bottom fins were also clamped or non existent. Before the move I noticed a few fry went missing and I was down to 8 or 9. I couldn't find the dead ones ANYWHERE in the little 2.5 gallon tank.

Furthermore, that day, I when I was at the pet shop on my way home BEFORE moving the fry. I saw they were about to feed some Bettas to some larger fish (not sure of the species) and I asked why. They said they could not sell them and they were getting a new shipment in so they had no choice. I offered to buy one and got myself a crowntail Betta. I grabbed a cheap 5 gallon tank, some substrate and plants. I used the filter and heater with the same filter media as the original 2.5 gallon tank without washing it into the new 5 gallon tank for the Betta, set it up and put the Betta in. I did this as I did not think at first the clamped fins were diseased.

The following day, in the 15 gallon I noticed one of the fry were missing, and then the day after another couple were missing. Today I was only able to spot 4. I found what I believe was a fry on the filter intake. 　It barely resembled a fry except for a gray area around where an eye could be and the color matched. It mashed in the net. I was unable to find any of the other missing fry.

They all have pinned tails but are swimming pretty normal. At the beginning they did not have clamped fins.

I have medicated the larger 15 gallon tank yesterday when there were more fry. I used a all in one fin rot and other fin/body disease medication only available in Japan. They havent unclamped at all.

I also added medication as I am worried if it is a parasite or disease that the filter could have it in there as well. Is the Betta safe?

Also I am expecting the other fry to die, and since I cant find any bodies, how do I know the tank is safe. is the fact that it is medicated enough? I dont have the cash for new substrate plants etc.

Any help would be great, and its awesome to find such a great tropical fish community!

 

[x2p]

UPDATE: one of the fry is trying to get its head into the substrate (clay balls)

 

[x2p]

Situation is getting worse. The one ramming his head into the ground is dead and now the other 3 are doing it.

I also found what I believe to be the spine and the eyes of a dead guppy. It is nearly unrecognizable.

I noticed my bogwood has little bits of white on it and furthermore little bits of blue on it and the aquarium glass. I was able to rub it off just to try and see what it was.

ANY HELP WOULD BE REALLY GREAT!

its making me worry about the betta

 

[aly_starh]

IMO, you have wrote too much, but some of it is not clear. No offence meant.

Can you EDIT it to make it shorter and more readable please.

EDIT: you will need to take tank stats ASAP>

 

[x2p]

IMO, you have wrote too much, but some of it is not clear. No offence meant.

Can you EDIT it to make it shorter and more readable please.

There isnt much I can do to shorten it as it has been a situation persisting for several days. I rewrote a couple sections to clarify it.

EDIT: you will need to take tank stats ASAP>

I cant afford to get it test it or test it. Here in Japan 40$ for each test except for PH would mean hundreds of dollars just for 6 tests each. Secondly the only two local fish shops want to charge me 60$ for a friggen water test. Thus I cant afford either of those.

 

[loraxchick]

hi and welcome to TFF!!!
i would suspect you are losing fry due to ammonia buildup. even though you used media from another tank to clone the new filter, you said you let it run for a week. did you have fish in there at the time? if not, the bacteria surely would have starved and died off leaving you with a "blank slate". the fry went into the tank, began producing waste (coupled with leftover food). ammonia built up quickly and one or more fry died as a result. which in turn produced MORE ammonia making the surviving fry in even worse conditions. clamped fins would be one symptom (as would fin rot). as for them drilling their heads into the substrate, fry often hide in the gravel so perhaps they were just trying to hide, which is wwhy all of them seemed to be doing this. i would suggest doing DAILY water changes of 20% in the fry tank for 2 months. then surely the filter will be cycled and you can go back to 20% every week. without a test kit, you have no way of knowing ammonia levels so daily changes long term are needed.
as far as the betta goes, i would think hed be just fine. you added him at the time you cloned the filter so the bacs would have a food source (this is unlike the fry tank where you (presumably) left it running ofr a time without livestock or an ammonia source to feed the bacteria). to be safe, feed him every other day for a month and change 30% of the water twice a week.after the month is up, go back to 20-30% water changes once a week and feed normally.
keep an eye on the betta for anything sinister, but be aware that they are known to sulk for a while when you bring them home. when they feel comfortable they will come around.
any more questions feel free to ask. or if i misunderstood your post and the info, clarification may be good to help you along further.
best of luck and nice to have you
cheers

 

[x2p]

hi and welcome to TFF!!!
i would suspect you are losing fry due to ammonia buildup. even though you used media from another tank to clone the new filter, you said you let it run for a week. did you have fish in there at the time? if not, the bacteria surely would have starved and died off leaving you with a "blank slate". the fry went into the tank, began producing waste (coupled with leftover food). ammonia built up quickly and one or more fry died as a result. which in turn produced MORE ammonia making the surviving fry in even worse conditions. clamped fins would be one symptom (as would fin rot). as for them drilling their heads into the substrate, fry often hide in the gravel so perhaps they were just trying to hide, which is wwhy all of them seemed to be doing this. i would suggest doing DAILY water changes of 20% in the fry tank for 2 months. then surely the filter will be cycled and you can go back to 20% every week. without a test kit, you have no way of knowing ammonia levels so daily changes long term are needed.
as far as the betta goes, i would think hed be just fine. you added him at the time you cloned the filter so the bacs would have a food source (this is unlike the fry tank where you (presumably) left it running ofr a time without livestock or an ammonia source to feed the bacteria). to be safe, feed him every other day for a month and change 30% of the water twice a week.after the month is up, go back to 20-30% water changes once a week and feed normally.
keep an eye on the betta for anything sinister, but be aware that they are known to sulk for a while when you bring them home. when they feel comfortable they will come around.
any more questions feel free to ask. or if i misunderstood your post and the info, clarification may be good to help you along further.
best of luck and nice to have you
cheers

Thanks for the reply!! but there are a few points I think you misunderstood, and it must be my unclear post.

I did not clone the filter media. I took the filter off the original fry tank and put it on the betta tank. The fry tank was not cycled and the fry had clamped fins and were dying off. They were moved into the new 15 gallon (ran for a week with bacteria booster that I have had success with before.

I notice the fry that was jabbing his head into the substrate died within an hour of beginning to do so. I am not sure if it is parasites or dropsy but I am suspecting those two. There are dead fry somewhere in the tank and I have only recovered a couple. I expect the other 3 to pass away shortly but how can I be sure that the tank is safe for new fish? I was thinking about picking up a couple platy to cycle the tank or something like it (simple and robust). But I want to make sure it is safe as it will be a female guppy community tank.

As for the betta I am a bit worried I may have transferred what ever the fry have by just moving the filter and its media (+heater).

Cheers

 

[aly_starh]

Thanks for the reply!! but there are a few points I think you misunderstood, and it must be my unclear post.

I did not clone the filter media. I took the filter off the original fry tank and put it on the betta tank. The fry tank was not cycled and the fry had clamped fins and were dying off. They were moved into the new 15 gallon (ran for a week with bacteria booster that I have had success with before.
I dont think the filter was ever cycled, ammonia from a few fry is not enough for a cylce to take place. I personally have never used 'bacteria booster' but i have read that its a waste of money.

I notice the fry that was jabbing his head into the substrate died within an hour of beginning to do so. I am not sure if it is parasites or dropsy but I am suspecting those two. There are dead fry somewhere in the tank and I have only recovered a couple. I expect the other 3 to pass away shortly but how can I be sure that the tank is safe for new fish? I was thinking about picking up a couple platy to cycle the tank or something like it (simple and robust). But I want to make sure it is safe as it will be a female guppy community tank.
I would'nt go out of my way to save the damaged ill fry, and i dont think they will survive much longer, To make the tank safe for new fishes (if there are none in the atm) i would empty it out under cold tap water, the chlorine will kill all the bacteria, you can also use vinegar.
Then to cycle the tank, dechlor the water, set everything up, leave it for approx 3 days, to ensure everything is running correctly ie. heater and filter.
You can either do a fishless cycle or a fish in cyle, reaf the pinned topics at the welcome page.

As for the betta I am a bit worried I may have transferred what ever the fry have by just moving the filter and its media (+heater).
If you can get ahold of meds try bettafix or maxyzin (sp?) It would also be beneficial to add aquarium salt to the tank.
Cheers

As a side not: I would really recommend you get a testing kit, once brought it can last for months. Otherwise you wont know when your tank is cycled or not.

Hope that helps!

 

[x2p]

I dont think the filter was ever cycled, ammonia from a few fry is not enough for a cylce to take place. I personally have never used 'bacteria booster' but i have read that its a waste of money.

If you can get ahold of meds try bettafix or maxyzin (sp?) It would also be beneficial to add aquarium salt to the tank.

I have the both the tank the betta is in and the fry tank medicated so the betta is covered, I will keep it up for two weeks. If symptoms dont appear then I think I should be in the clear.

I would'nt go out of my way to save the damaged ill fry, and i dont think they will survive much longer, To make the tank safe for new fishes (if there are none in the atm) i would empty it out under cold tap water, the chlorine will kill all the bacteria, you can also use vinegar.
Then to cycle the tank, dechlor the water, set everything up, leave it for approx 3 days, to ensure everything is running correctly ie. heater and filter.
You can either do a fishless cycle or a fish in cyle, reaf the pinned topics at the welcome page.

Should I euthanize? They seem to be struggling. As for emptying it do you mean substrate and all? Would it be ok just to do a massive 70-90% water change with chlorinated water and let it run for 3 days like that? then do another 50% and treat the water?

Would the plants survive?

There will be dead fry somewhere which I likely wont find as they are decaying fast.

I wont be doing a fishless cycle due to the cost of the tests to make sure the tank is cycled. Plus the ammonia stuff here is also killer high priced

As a side not: I would really recommend you get a testing kit, once brought it can last for months. smile.gif Otherwise you wont know when your tank is cycled or not.

Unforunately as stated before I cant afford ammonia, nitrate and nitrite tests as they would all equal 120$ for 6 test strips each here in Japan.

 

[loraxchick]

honestly, i still think it is an ammonia issue. the only way to dilute it is waterchanges until the filter can handle it. the "starter bacteria in a bottle" stuff is touchy. i dont see how they could survive in a bottle with limited O2 and little nutrients for very long. some have reported success but mostly it is a gimic to get your money.
that behavior is suspicious on the fry's part if they all died shortly afterward. but guppies are so inbread (a big generalization there) and fry can be born with all sorts of deformities and sometimes not the hardiest of fish (im sure soemone will contradict this but its been IME). also fry are more susceptable to water quality and more prone to infections. a healthy adult fish can usually fight off diseases unless stressed in some way. no matter how pristine we keep our tanks there are ALWAYS pathogens just waiting to gain hold on a weakened fish.
so again, id suggest changing water in the fry tank everyday for 2 months. make sure you are cleaning the substrate too with a gravel vac or even a turkey baster to get rid of as much debris you can, especialy since there are some dead in there producing more ammonia.
as for mr betta, just watch him closely for signs of disease or distress. things to look for:
-white spots
-flicking or rubbing against objects in the tank
-listless or lethargic behavior (he might be lethargic right now casue he's new..they do tend to sulk when new)
-changes in his fins, especially around the margins. pinholes or black edging to his fins. if you spot clearish bits on the edges that is fin growth and nothing to worry about
-bulging tummy. bettas are prone to constipation and shouldnt be overfed. feeeding a chopped cooked pea once a week and a starve day after is good practice as it cleans them out.
-trouble maintaining balance in the water. if you notice this feed a pea as above.

sorry about your fry, and just watch the betta and see.
cheers

 

[x2p]

honestly, i still think it is an ammonia issue. the only way to dilute it is waterchanges until the filter can handle it. the "starter bacteria in a bottle" stuff is touchy. i dont see how they could survive in a bottle with limited O2 and little nutrients for very long. some have reported success but mostly it is a gimic to get your money.
that behavior is suspicious on the fry's part if they all died shortly afterward. but guppies are so inbread (a big generalization there) and fry can be born with all sorts of deformities and sometimes not the hardiest of fish (im sure soemone will contradict this but its been IME). also fry are more susceptable to water quality and more prone to infections. a healthy adult fish can usually fight off diseases unless stressed in some way. no matter how pristine we keep our tanks there are ALWAYS pathogens just waiting to gain hold on a weakened fish.
so again, id suggest changing water in the fry tank everyday for 2 months. make sure you are cleaning the substrate too with a gravel vac or even a turkey baster to get rid of as much debris you can, especialy since there are some dead in there producing more ammonia.
as for mr betta, just watch him closely for signs of disease or distress. things to look for:
-white spots
-flicking or rubbing against objects in the tank
-listless or lethargic behavior (he might be lethargic right now casue he's new..they do tend to sulk when new)
-changes in his fins, especially around the margins. pinholes or black edging to his fins. if you spot clearish bits on the edges that is fin growth and nothing to worry about
-bulging tummy. bettas are prone to constipation and shouldnt be overfed. feeeding a chopped cooked pea once a week and a starve day after is good practice as it cleans them out.
-trouble maintaining balance in the water. if you notice this feed a pea as above.

sorry about your fry, and just watch the betta and see.
cheers

Thanks for the reply!! it was very insightful , I did a water change before medicating so the ammonia should have diluted but I think you may be right about ammonia poisoning. There are three left and only one is near the bottom.

Ill keep my eye on the betta how often should I water change a 5gallon tank with the betta while cycling?

Also I am trying to think of a tough fish to cycle the larger tank with any suggestions? They must be compatible with female guppies and kuhli roaches.

Cheers!

 

[loraxchick]

everyone will be on you for a test kit. i understand this is not a real possibility in your case. so the best thing is to believe that there will be considerable ammonia in both tanks everyday until it cycles.
best thing to do-waterchanges. but you say dechlor is expensive too. so how do you treat the water? age it? if you are aging water you will have to let it sit out for at least 12 hours. if you can get a bubbler and run it in the "aging" bucket" you could get away with around 6 hours to drive off the chlorine. this is essential or you will most likely never get the filters to cycle as the chlorine will kill the filter bacs before they can establish a good population.
in the fry tank it wil be hard to properly medicate becasue it will be essential to change 30% of the water everyday and then figure out how much meds to replace. simply changing the water may take care of most of the issues you are seeing with the fry, unless they are deformed. are the parents of the fry healthy? if so, assume the fry are too and dont medicate. just keep clean water.
as for the betta change 20-30% of his water 2-3 times a week and only feed them a small amount of food (2-3 pellets, or say 4 flakes) every other day. make sure the fish eats all his food and remove any that he doesnt eat as it will only pollute the water. it is a real pain to do constant waterchanges, and that is why fishless cycling is suggested. keep it up for 6 weeks to 2 months and i can almost say with certainty that your filters will cycle in this time if using treated water (aged or with dechlor). it would be a very rare thing for both filters to not cycle within this time. albeit not impossible, but unlikely.
cheers

 

[x2p]

everyone will be on you for a test kit. i understand this is not a real possibility in your case. so the best thing is to believe that there will be considerable ammonia in both tanks everyday until it cycles.
best thing to do-waterchanges. but you say dechlor is expensive too. so how do you treat the water? age it? if you are aging water you will have to let it sit out for at least 12 hours. if you can get a bubbler and run it in the "aging" bucket" you could get away with around 6 hours to drive off the chlorine. this is essential or you will most likely never get the filters to cycle as the chlorine will kill the filter bacs before they can establish a good population.
in the fry tank it wil be hard to properly medicate becasue it will be essential to change 30% of the water everyday and then figure out how much meds to replace. simply changing the water may take care of most of the issues you are seeing with the fry, unless they are deformed. are the parents of the fry healthy? if so, assume the fry are too and dont medicate. just keep clean water.
as for the betta change 20-30% of his water 2-3 times a week and only feed them a small amount of food (2-3 pellets, or say 4 flakes) every other day. make sure the fish eats all his food and remove any that he doesnt eat as it will only pollute the water. it is a real pain to do constant waterchanges, and that is why fishless cycling is suggested. keep it up for 6 weeks to 2 months and i can almost say with certainty that your filters will cycle in this time if using treated water (aged or with dechlor). it would be a very rare thing for both filters to not cycle within this time. albeit not impossible, but unlikely.
cheers

Yes I treat my water every time, unfortunately its too cold to try aging here as there is no central heating in Japanese homes. The parents are healthy and not deformed but they have been in a seperate tank.

Thanks for the water change rate! I usually feed him twice a day. I feed him these small little bits that are almost like bits of meat. They are soft and are a 1/2 mm by 1/2mm. I have been feeding him 5-7 twice a day as he is able to eat that much in a minute. I guess I should cut back?

Thanks!!

 

[loraxchick]

you could still age your water and add some boiling water to bring it up to temp...boiling decreases the solubility of gaseous things (like chlorine/oxygen/co2) and boiling water for about 10 mins would drive off any chlorine. then add the hot water to the cold aged water till you reach a similar temp to the tank water. a pain, but can be done.
as far as the betta- feed him only 2-3 pellets every other day for a month. dont think you are starving him as fish can go some time without food. think to yourself, less food in=less waste out=less waterchanges and less damage to the fish. do this for 1 month and then feed 2-3 pellets once a day. if you are able, get bloodworms or similar for treats once a week. if using freezedried food, presoak them in a little tankwater until they are soft, then feed the fish. doing it that ay helps reduce the "risk" of constipating the fish. freezedried foods are notorious for that, but soaking them should alleviate this risk,
how long has the parent tank of the guppies been running? could you grab some of that media (never take more than 1/3 of the media in an established tank, and replace what you take) to help with the fry tank? fry are far more sensitive to water chemistry than the betta would be. even a small piece of foam tied to the filter in the fry tank wuold help out a lot to establish the bacteria. doing it that way youd probably be cycled in less than 2 weeks, esp. if there are only 3 fry. the goal is to have enough bacteria to handle the waste of the fish. fry are small and produce less waste than adult fish, and cleaning up uneaten food is a must in an uncycled fry tank. you shouldnt cut back feeding the fry because they NEED lots of food to grow properly, so sadly loads of water changes are in order until the filter is sorted.
should you lose all your fry, give the tank a good, thorough clean (dont touch the filter and if you are able, set it up alongside the existing filter in the parent tank. will help establish bacteria and next time you have fry just move it back into the fry tank) and hopefully the ammonia wont be so much of an issue as the filter will have hopefully established a bacteria population.
sadly it may be too late for the current fry. but dont give up on them. you may only get one to survive, but think of this a learning curve. next time hopefully you will be better prepared.
good luck!