Guppy Deaths - Help Please

[dangermouse]

Hi

Okay 96 litre my tank contains:

25 neon tetra
10 male Guppies
1 Bristlenose catfish
2 Corys
3 male dwarf gourami

All the fish look happy and healthy. PH is 6.8. GH, KH, NO2 (zero) and NO3 (<25ppm) all register fine. Weekly water changes (20%) using stress coat to de-chloriniate.

5ml of plany fertiliser every week.

Every now and again I find a guppy dead and missing some or all of its tail. The night before all is fine (no sign of fin-rot)....

Any ideas?

 

[waterdrop]

Hi there dangermouse and welcome to TFF,

I'm sure the members will come along and help you. At a glance I notice a couple of things they could discuss with you: You may be overstocked (25 neons alone would put you pretty close to the 25g capacity or so) a bit and how bad that situation would be might depend on your filtration levels. The other thing is that the male gouramis might just be deciding to "chow down" on some guppy tail every now and then, 'cause they think its tasty! Or, still another explanation may simply be the poor state of guppy disease resistance we've slowly worked into in recent decades from all the non-wild inbreeding.

Good luck in your discussions!
~~waterdrop~~

 

[RedeyesUK]

How often exactly is 'every now and again'?

Guppies aren't as hardy as they used to be, and it doesn't take much to kill them.

For the fins, my money is on the tetras. I know they look quite meek and innocent, but a bit of fin nipping isn't beyond them! That may or may not be causing stress which can lead to their deaths.

 

[PRW1988]

The 3 male dwarf gouramis could be the cause of the fin nips. Also IME guppies are not that highly active of a species, I mean they swim around, but not like the neons you have. The neons constant movement could be the reason why they're dying, it could be stressing the guppies out, also the fact that all of the guppies are males, could be agression issues between the guppies.

 

[dangermouse]

How often exactly is 'every now and again'?

Guppies aren't as hardy as they used to be, and it doesn't take much to kill them.

For the fins, my money is on the tetras. I know they look quite meek and innocent, but a bit of fin nipping isn't beyond them! That may or may not be causing stress which can lead to their deaths.

I've lost three in the last 8 weeks. Not very close together.

The thing is that when it happens the whole tail is pretty much gone but there is no sign of any damage on any of my other fish not any signs of stress really. They eat well and their tails are full and undamaged.

Could one of the other species simply decide one day to eat the whole tail of a single fish and leave the rest pretty much alone the rest of the time?

Is 25 neons really pushing a 96 litre tank capacity - wouldn't by NO2 be high if the filter couldn't cope?

 

[waterdrop]

What kit are you using to test the water?

 

[dangermouse]

What kit are you using to test the water?

Hi

Tetra 6-in-1 strips.

I'm failry convinced that the water is okay as teh fish are all spot on - no fin rot, fungus, goo appetite, active, fins up etc. The fish I've lost are fine the day before (full tails, active and eating) and I then find them without tail and dead the following morning....

I havn't noted any aggressive behaviour from the other other fish, the Dwarf gouramis are terratorial with each other but they each have a little bit of teh tank pegged out and they don't bother other species of fish "on their turf".

I note that some of the guppys sleep laid on the bottom of the tank whilst other prefer to flot at the top, could they be getting their tails stuck in the filter?

Oh dear I should have spell checked that!

 

[keenonfish]

You haven't mentioned Ammonia levels and also looking around this place the general consensus with strips is that they are next to useless.

 

[Athena]

Hi Dangermous

That really is a lot of fish for that size tank!

Let's go back to the old rule-of-thumb guide of 1" of fish per gallon...your tank is about 25 gallons so that would make 25" of fish. Ok, let's assume you have really good filtration (by that I mean more than is necessary for your size tank), you can up that amount of fish a bit, let's say an extra 10", making 35" of fish.

Obviously it does depend on the type of fish and how messy they are, if any are territorial and require a large span of area as their own etc - but this is just a guide to help in understanding stock levels.

So at a rough estimate of your current fish sizes you have about 50"+ of fish in there, I think.

It just means that you will need to be doing very regular water changes to prevent any ammonia/nitrite spikes during the week. Any slight, sudden increase to these levels can knock some fish out very quickly. Guppies are not that hardy any more and can drop like flies if any of these toxic levels rise.

Those test strips you've been using are not very accurate, either - a liquid test kit would be a better investment.

Also, another thing to bear in mind is that when a tank is fully stocked with fish that are mostly swimming in the same areas (neons, guppies, Dwarf gouramis all battling for same space) it can cause stress and irritability. That can then lead to some fish behaving a little more aggressively (e.g. the gouramis) and fin-nipping the guppies. The guppies, already stressed by other tank factors, are then stressed even more...add bad water quality to the pot and you have a time-bomb waiting to go off.

My tip would be to try to rehome some of your fish to lessen the burden on your filter and also to create a less hectic/stressful environment. It will also make for an easier life for you, too. But if you want to keep things as they are you will need to increase your tank maintenance, more water changes/gravel vacs/filter sloosh/testing etc to keep on top of things.

I'm one of these that believe keeping fish should be a pleasure, not a burden. I always try to keep my tanks slightly under-stocked for an easier life - and happier fish LOL

Regards - Athena

 

[dangermouse]

Athena

Thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed response, I appreciate it.

My kit does not test amonia, I was advised that if I am seeing NO3 and NO2 has dropped that the tank has finished cycling. Should I still be checking for amonia - perhaps this is the problem?

WRT fish inches I have 31.5 inches of fish in there although as they grow I will need to look at expending the accomaodation I have. Based on the neons and guppy's being quite long and thin, I think I am safe on fish. All the reference material I have read says that the fish inches can be stretched little for long thin fish as they generate less waste / need less o2 than a bigger fish the same length.

I will obtain a better test kit this weekend and ensure I check the amonia.

What I aren't convinced of though is that this could be a water problem when it affects only a single fish. I would have expected at least some signs of stress in the other fish if the water were bad, wouldn't you think?

Will run a good water test on Saturday and let you know though.

Hi Dangermous

That really is a lot of fish for that size tank!

Let's go back to the old rule-of-thumb guide of 1" of fish per gallon...your tank is about 25 gallons so that would make 25" of fish. Ok, let's assume you have really good filtration (by that I mean more than is necessary for your size tank), you can up that amount of fish a bit, let's say an extra 10", making 35" of fish.

Obviously it does depend on the type of fish and how messy they are, if any are territorial and require a large span of area as their own etc - but this is just a guide to help in understanding stock levels.

So at a rough estimate of your current fish sizes you have about 50"+ of fish in there, I think.

It just means that you will need to be doing very regular water changes to prevent any ammonia/nitrite spikes during the week. Any slight, sudden increase to these levels can knock some fish out very quickly. Guppies are not that hardy any more and can drop like flies if any of these toxic levels rise.

Those test strips you've been using are not very accurate, either - a liquid test kit would be a better investment.

Also, another thing to bear in mind is that when a tank is fully stocked with fish that are mostly swimming in the same areas (neons, guppies, Dwarf gouramis all battling for same space) it can cause stress and irritability. That can then lead to some fish behaving a little more aggressively (e.g. the gouramis) and fin-nipping the guppies. The guppies, already stressed by other tank factors, are then stressed even more...add bad water quality to the pot and you have a time-bomb waiting to go off.

My tip would be to try to rehome some of your fish to lessen the burden on your filter and also to create a less hectic/stressful environment. It will also make for an easier life for you, too. But if you want to keep things as they are you will need to increase your tank maintenance, more water changes/gravel vacs/filter sloosh/testing etc to keep on top of things.

I'm one of these that believe keeping fish should be a pleasure, not a burden. I always try to keep my tanks slightly under-stocked for an easier life - and happier fish LOL

Regards - Athena

 

[vinylman]

Hi Dangermouse and welcome. Yes, that's overstocked, IMO. Three very big clues in your post as to what could be happening:

1 10 male guppies
2 25 Neon Tetras
3 3 male Dwarf Gourami

Neon Tetras will nip the fins of most long-finned fish, even Bettas. IMO, the Neons themselves aren't safe with the Dwarf Gourami (which themselves are prone to a fatal Iridovirus). I had two DG a few years back and one day, they took it upon themselves to kill the ten Cardinal Tetras I had. I think this is a very unfortunate mix of fish; some of them will be stressed out and that will leave them even more open to illness. When a fish is picked on in a tank that size, there's not a lot of room to try and hide. As has been noted, Guppies really aren't great quality these days. If anything slows them down, they're more or less sitting ducks for the Neons. I'd rethink the combination of fish you currently have. Try to have a word with your LFS to see if you can return them, take a look at the other fish in the shop and try to get a list together of the ones you like the look of, then come back here and post the list.

 

[Athena]

Hello again

Yes, you really do need to invest in a proper liquid test kit that covers ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and PH. They can be purchased as most good LFS or online.

I used to use those strip tests at first - and they always gave me the same readings (as in all was ok) but I had a sneaky feeling something wasn't right (due to sudden fish deaths for no apparent reason) so I purchased a liquid test kit and that is when I got a much clearer and truer reading of my tank stats and was able to correct the problems.

Back to your stock level - have you calculated that correctly? I had another look at your list and I can't see how you'd get to only 31.5inches...here's my working out:

10 male guppies @ 1" each (adult guppies are usually more than 1" but I'm using minimum sizes)
25 neons @ 1" each
3 male dwarf gouramis @ 2" each (they are usually not smaller, often larger than this)

So I make that 41" so far...

Then you have a bristlenose catfish (no idea how big but I'll assume it is tiny, let's say 2.5")

And lastly the 2 Corys - again I'm just guessing at 2" each as a minimum.

Total: 47.5"

Basically, you have a couple of problems that need addressing. Firstly, the overcrowding. Yes, you can exceed the 1" per gallon guide in some circumstances (and this will depend on the type of tank, actual volume of water, the strength of your filter and how well it has been cycled, the size and type of the fish and whether they are heavy poopers or not etc). Even then, overstocking a tank will need careful and regular maintenance to ensure that water is kept pristine and that all fish are healthy.

If, on the other hand, you have an overstocked tank that has developed problems (sudden deaths, aggression, fin-nipping, any ailments etc) then this indicates that the overstocking is not working in this instance. If things are left as they are then it is likely there will be more fish deaths in weeks to come.

Dwarf Gourami's have been known as fin-nippers, although I have only once caught my DG attempting to pounce on the tail of a new fish I had put in. But, anyway, even if fish are "peaceful" by nature - put them in an overcrowded tank with bad water quality and even the nicest of fish will have a "dig" at its tankmates!

When fish are not happy it shows in their behaviour. For some fish, they become quite crazy, swimming around and up and down at high speeds, picking on anything that gets in its way - others will simply find a quiet place and sit on the gravel to escape it all.

Secondly, water condition. If tank water conditions are only just beginning to go bad (a very slow increase in ammonia/nitrites) then, no, it won't kill off all the fish in one go. It will be the weakest fish to go first. And as time goes on, it'll be the next weakest fish, and so on...

Even if tank water stats are all at a normal range - if there is sudden overcrowding and stress then it usually results in a fish or two dying prematurely. Stress is one of the biggest killers in the aquarium!

Anyway, give it some thought over the weekend and try to work out a plan that could help this situation. My tips would be to either take some of the fish back to the LFS or find a friend who wants some, or if you can purchase another tank and then halve the load.

Good luck and regards - Athena

 

[dangermouse]

Okay so seems to me the mix of fish is wrong, I had the water tested at my LFS and it is okay (including amonia test).

I take note that the tank may be crowded in terms of room for fish to hide etc.

My LFS tols me the fish mix was okay and most reference material says that the DG and the neons make good community fish.

I will consider getting a second tank and splitting the guppies up from the other fish. Will the neons be okay with the gouramis do you think - they have had no casualties but then the lack of guppies may change that I suppose?

Hi Dangermouse and welcome. Yes, that's overstocked, IMO. Three very big clues in your post as to what could be happening:

1 10 male guppies
2 25 Neon Tetras
3 3 male Dwarf Gourami

Neon Tetras will nip the fins of most long-finned fish, even Bettas. IMO, the Neons themselves aren't safe with the Dwarf Gourami (which themselves are prone to a fatal Iridovirus). I had two DG a few years back and one day, they took it upon themselves to kill the ten Cardinal Tetras I had. I think this is a very unfortunate mix of fish; some of them will be stressed out and that will leave them even more open to illness. When a fish is picked on in a tank that size, there's not a lot of room to try and hide. As has been noted, Guppies really aren't great quality these days. If anything slows them down, they're more or less sitting ducks for the Neons. I'd rethink the combination of fish you currently have. Try to have a word with your LFS to see if you can return them, take a look at the other fish in the shop and try to get a list together of the ones you like the look of, then come back here and post the list.

 

[Athena]

Well, yes, gouramis and neons would be better than gouramis and guppies. Neons can swim away faster than guppies, so if the gouramis did decide to go on a rampage there's more chance of the neons surviving than the guppies.

Like I said - my DG is a very placid boy and I've only caught him once being naughty (although maybe when my back is turned he may get up to all sorts... but his tankmates are still all intact LOL). I recently added a small shoal of 5 silver tip tetras and it was one of these that my DG crept up on and made a swift lunge at one of their tails - he missed as the tetras are very quick!

It all depends on the personality of your DGs I guess. If they are secretly responsible for bullying any of your guppies, resulting in their death, then I would definitely separate them from guppies.

Oh - and that's good news about your water stats (did they write the results down for you? If so, can you post them here). The sample that you took - how long after a water change was it taken?

Lastly, don't take what your LFS say as 100% accurate all the time. As most people on here will tell you, the majority of time, the staff working there don't actually have enough knowledge about the fish they are selling and even if they do, they are pressured into just making sales, regardless of whether the combinations are right or wrong. I've been given tons of bad advice over the years by different LFSs - often the best way to learn is through experience of doing things the wrong way LOL!

Even last weekend when I was in my LFS, I was just browsing the tanks and got chatting to a staff member - mentioned one of my tanks was quite understocked and I was debating what else to put in there - said I had a female betta (fighter fish) in there and was told "Oh, well why don't you put a male in to keep her company!" I then had to explain why keeping male and females together is a really bad idea and how another of their team last year had sold me a "pair" as good community fish (when I didn't know any better) and that the female almost killed the male! That turned into a costly mistake as I then had to buy a separate tank/heater/filter etc just for the male betta who was a real pitiful sight with no finnage left!

Last year another staff member at that LFS sold me 3 different species of sharks for the same tank! That resulted in me having to buy yet ANOTHER tank and rehome one of the others.

Another LFS told me I had to change my filter sponge every couple of months! Yikes!

Oh, the bad advice is endless...

That's why this forum is so good - because those of us who have learnt the hard way are here to give useful pointers to those who are making, or about to make, the same mistakes. I'm still having to deal with the consequences of listening to bad advice from LFSs.

Bye for now - Athena