Gulping Guppies And Sickly Minnows

[FlickGC]

We've recently bought an aquarium, and I wondered if anyone could reassure / advise me.

The aquarium is a 60L Biorb Life, and we set it up a fortnight ago. We've been testing the water regularly with an API Master Freshwater test kit, getting the following results:

[codebox]Date pH Ammonia Nitrite Nitrate
31/8 7.8 0 0 5
2/9 7.8 0 0 10
2/9 8 0 0 15
3/9 8 0 0 20
4/9 7.5 0.25 0 20
4/9 - 0.25 0 -
5/9 7.5 0.5 0 15
5/9 8.3 0.5 0 -
6/9 8.3 0.5 0 20
6/9 8.2 0.5 0 20
8/9 8.3 0.5 0 20
9/9 - 0.5 0 -
10/9 8.3 0.5 0 -
11/9 - 0.5 0 20
12/9 8.4 0.25 0 -
12/9 - 0.25 0 -
13/9 - 0.25 0 -
13/9 - 0 0 -
14/9 8.3 0 0 0[/codebox]
(Where there are two results for a day, one is about 7am and the other about 7pm. A - means it wasn't tested that time.)

The tank has (as well as some plastic plants for scenery / hiding) some clumps of Java Moss and a Java Fern in it.

We added three White Cloud Mountain Minnows on 2/9 (earlier than most places say, but Biorb reckon that it's ok because of the way the tank's designed, apparently). They looked rather panicked at first, but settled down fairly well. A couple of days later, the smallest of them died: it was noticeably smaller than the other two, and they seemed to be cornering it and nipping at it, so we thought it was probably just stress. We also added a small bottle of Tetra Safe Start a couple of days after the fish.

On 12/9, we added another three White Cloud Mountain Minnows, and they seemed to settle in with the other two quite well at first, although they were very much darker in colour along the body: dark grey, rather than almost white like the existing ones, but again the smallest died the next day. However, the results of the water testing were all looking ok (the ammonia even going down slightly), so we thought it would be ok to go on with the next stage of the stocking plan and get three guppies, which we added on 13/9 (yesterday).

Today, the minnows have spent the whole day at the bottom of the tank, one of them looking very much as though it's about to die, and the guppies have spent most of their time at the top of the tank, gulping air.

We've been doing about 20% water changes every three days (including this morning), putting Stress Coat and Stress Zyme in the water and then leaving it to sit in a bucket overnight before the change. We also added some extra Stress Zyme this afternoon, which seemed to perk the guppies up a little: they swam around the tank for a couple of hours, before returning to the top, and are occasionally still doing so (one more than the others).

We fed the minnows while the guppies were still in their bag getting used to the tank water, but they haven't been fed since.

I'm worried that we might have moved to quickly in putting the guppies in: does anyone have any advice or reassurance? Should we feed them, or wait a day or so? Should we start doing daily water changes, or wait a few days?

(We do know that the minnows ideally like a slightly cooler temperature than the guppies, but understood that the overlap was sufficient for them to be happy together. As it is, the water is at about 23-24C, and has been throughout, as it's quite warm here!)

Sorry for the huge info dump. I'd be really grateful for any advice!

 

[aly_starh]

Welcome to TFF!

I think the bioload may have been too much, did you do i fish-in cycle? You say you used TetraSafe start, i think that is used when doing a fishless cycle, although im not entirely sure. Fish should not have been added that quick.

I would do a 50% water change, with dechlorinated water as to not remove benificial bacteria in the water, then take test results.

Also, i would like to add, so you know for future reference, your ammonia and nitrite reading should both be 0 for 8-9 days before adding fish, this will show your tank is fully cycled.
once cycled only add 2-3 fish every 1 1/2 weeks, as to not get an ammonia spike.

~betta_246

 

[waterdrop]

Hi FlickGC and welcome to TFF!

I really like your careful discussion of all the data and particularly like your use of the "code" window. How did you do that? Very unusual for a first post in the beginners section, lol. Anyway glad you've found us and hope you will feel it was worthwhile eventually!

So lets get down to it. Obviously lots of effort on your part to gather correct information! The problem is that between the LFS info and manufacturers "instructions" such as with the Biorb, the info you've received is just basically dead wrong in a lot of ways (shocking but true, lol!) Their business model just can't handle various "inconvenient truths" of the hobby, such as how difficult and slow it can be to grow bacteria of the right type! There also may be a bit of inconvenient information about the particular equipment.

Unlike humans, when fish exchange oxygen from the water going through their gills, they produce not only CO2 but also a fairly good bit of ammonia (NH3.) Fish waste, excess fish food and live plant debris are all organics that quickly are broken down in water (by "heterotrophic" bacteria) to produce... Ammonia! Ammonia, unfortunately, causes permanent gill damage, leading to shortened lives or death in fish (in typical "Rube Goldberg" fashion, mother nature doesn't care that ammonia produced at the gills is poisonous, as its carried away in nature by millions of gallons of fresh water!)

Now, as it turns out, fish hobbyists have, more or less forever, had a trick up their pockets, in that there's a species of "autotrophic" bacteria that will populate an aquarium filter (its the "Nitrosomonas" species) and "EAT" the ammonia and turn it into Nitrite(NO2) in the first step of a process we call nitrification. Unfortunately (you guessed it)... NO2 is ALSO a deadly poison to fish but in the case of this substance it is because the oxygen part of it latches on to the hemoglobin proteins in fish red blood cells, just as if it were pure oxygen (O2) and then proceeds to destroy the red blood cell, turning it into brown mush. The immediate effect of this is to severely limit oxygen transport by the blood and the very first cells and organs that "can't take it" are the nerve cells and the brain of the fish. So once again its permanent damage leading to shortened lifespan and possible death, depending on species and concentration.

Ah, but once again the hobbyists have blind luck! There's yet another species of "autotrophic" bacteria (this time the "Nitrospira" speces, even though they only recently really identified it) that just loves to eat nitrite(NO2) and it too can grow in their fishtank filters. They turn the NO2 into Nitrate(NO3) which is also a bit of a nasty, but really not nearly as bad as the other two fish poisons, so it can be removed by weekly water changes done on a regular basis. Incidently, these "autotrophic" bacteria do not live in the water, only on the biomedia substrates to a great extent.

All well and good you say and that's why I'm "cycling!" But in fact the business of dumping living fish into a tank that's going to potentially get pumped with poisons has a bit of the old barbaric dark ages to it, eh? Right! And back in 1980 or thereabouts, a group of smart scientists having fun on the then new usenet of the future internet decided that they could "find a better way" for cycling their tanks for their tropical fish hobby. Thus "Fishless Cycling" was born and over a period of years it was worked out that yes indeed you could just buy "household ammonia" that's used to clean floors (!) and use THAT to grow the darn bacteria! Why kill the little fish!

You see, it turns out that the so called "FILTER" that they sell you is really just a "hardware kit" and, just like a computer, it can't do a darn thing until its got its "software." In fact it can take 3 weeks to 2 months actually (assuming one doesn't have an "old" tank to use for a jumpstart) before this "filter thing" is actually a working piece of hardware and can support fish! They are so NOT going to tell you that! So, as a result, you've now been duped into what we call a "Fish-In Cycling Situation"... trying to save your fish!

OK, enough of my attempt at an entertaining story. What you need now are water changes with good water changing technique and you need to "do your homework" by reading your first three articles in the Beginners Resource Center... the Nitrogen Cycle, the Fishless Cycle and of course the one you need, the Fish-In Cycling Situation!

Advice bit number two (don't like this part).. We've had a number of discussions just recently with folks who have attempted to get the Biorbs to work with the original equipment. You shouldn't have too much trouble searching and finding threads on Biorb. The short strory is that most of them have ended up deciding to dump the filter and replace it with a different filter or to actually "demote" the biorb to "quarantine tank" status and get a "normal" tank with a more normal filter. This is not necessarily my advice. I'm not the most knowledgeable one about biorbs.. there are others here who can speak with more experience. But I would seek to have a very serious discussion about the particulars of the biorb filter and make a decision about it. Anyway, sorry all of this will seem like such bad news from your standpoint but its often better to have it straight up as it were.

And again, welcome. The members here are great and will seek to help you in many ways, so I hope it goes well.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Harlequins]

You are in a fish in cycle,you will need to do regular water changes to keep your ammonia/nitrite down,your ph seems high from when your first readings,what decor do you have in the tank?,something is making it rise??
Can you take the guppies back for now?
what temperature is your tank,i know minnows are cold water fish and can be kept in tropical tanks.

 

[FlickGC]

Well, having been convinced that we were going to be a minnow down this morning, I was surprised that they're all still going, and looking happier than they were last night.

Sadly, not so much the guppies: one of them was in the middle of the Java Fern first thing this morning, and seems not to have moved at all, so if it's still not moved in in a few hours I'm going to assume it's dead and take it out. The second is swimming around the tank, but vertically (bad sign?), and occasionally going and sitting in a plant / on the rocks, and the third is still up at the very top in the bubbles.

We did a c20% water change this morning, and the test results were the same as the last time.

Also, i would like to add, so you know for future reference, your ammonia and nitrite reading should both be 0 for 8-9 days before adding fish, this will show your tank is fully cycled.

Ah, this may be where we went wrong: we thought it just had to get down to zero.

I really like your careful discussion of all the data and particularly like your use of the "code" window. How did you do that? Very unusual for a first post in the beginners section, lol. Anyway glad you've found us and hope you will feel it was worthwhile eventually!

Thank you! It's standard bb code: [ codebox ] and [ /codebox] (without the spaces); just makes it easier with such a large infodump!

So lets get down to it. Obviously lots of effort on your part to gather correct information! The problem is that between the LFS info and manufacturers "instructions" such as with the Biorb, the info you've received is just basically dead wrong in a lot of ways (shocking but true, lol!) Their business model just can't handle various "inconvenient truths" of the hobby, such as how difficult and slow it can be to grow bacteria of the right type! There also may be a bit of inconvenient information about the particular equipment.

Argh: that's so annoying! We just thought that they must have really good technology and start up bacteria cultures for it to work so fast.

What you need now are water changes with good water changing technique [...]

Advice bit number two (don't like this part).. We've had a number of discussions just recently with folks who have attempted to get the Biorbs to work with the original equipment. You shouldn't have too much trouble searching and finding threads on Biorb. The short strory is that most of them have ended up deciding to dump the filter and replace it with a different filter or to actually "demote" the biorb to "quarantine tank" status and get a "normal" tank with a more normal filter.

Ouch. We've done another c20% change this morning, but it's a bit depressing that we might have to change the filter and so on: I'll go and have a hunt through the forums for more info. We don't have that much space, and the real attraction of the Biorb was the small footprint.

your ph seems high from when your first readings,what decor do you have in the tank?,something is making it rise??

We've got some Java Moss, and a Java Fern. Other than those, we've got about three packs of the Biorb plastic plants and some Biorb stones. Nothing else that didn't come with the tank.

I was a bit worried about the pH, too, but it is London tap water (which tends to be fairly alkaline). Is there anything we can do to bring the acidity up?

Can you take the guppies back for now?

Not practically, I'm afraid.

what temperature is your tank,i know minnows are cold water fish and can be kept in tropical tanks.

It's at about 24C.

Thank you all!

 

[ZoddyZod]

I lost two guppies yesterday, if they are just sitting somewhere and breathing fast then it's not a good sign I'm afraid. You will know if they are dead because they will lose all their colour.

 

[FlickGC]

You will know if they are dead because they will lose all their colour.

It would be the white one that I'm not sure about!

 

[waterdrop]

Water changes are your friend. If fish are dying I'd definately be changing at least 50% regardless of what your test results are saying. Be sure to dose conditioner, in fact dose conditioner at 1.5x the instructed amount but not over 2x. Termperature match (your hand is good enough) the return water in addition to conditioning it.

Unfortunately, since you've now been getting zero readings now for several days, it may be that they were exposed to too many days at 0.50ppm ammonia to save them.

Can you describe the design and function of your particular Biorb filter to the members? I believe some Biorb filters are "undergravel" types and others are not, but I'm not sure and it would be nice to draw in some Biorb experienced members.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[ZoddyZod]

It would be the white one that I'm not sure about!

if it's a nice bright white, it'll wash out and turn grey. Mine were bright red/purple and lost all colour.

 

[FlickGC]

Water changes are your friend. If fish are dying I'd definately be changing at least 50% regardless of what your test results are saying. Be sure to dose conditioner, in fact dose conditioner at 1.5x the instructed amount but not over 2x. Termperature match (your hand is good enough) the return water in addition to conditioning it.

Ok, I'll try it with extra conditioner. Thanks.

Can you describe the design and function of your particular Biorb filter to the members? I believe some Biorb filters are "undergravel" types and others are not, but I'm not sure and it would be nice to draw in some Biorb experienced members.

I'm not sure I know enough about filters to be able to! As far as I know, they all have the same system, though: special 'ceramic media' instead of gravel, then an inch-high disk under the bubble tube, containing a sponge and some white and black pellets. The water is drawn through the ceramic media, then through the sponge and pellets, goes up the bubble tube and returns to the cycle at the top of the tank.

The idea is that the bacteria all live in the ceramic media, and then every month you change the whole of the filtration disk. Reading around today, it seems like a lot of people actually just rinse the sponge out and re-use it, replacing the white and black pellets with either just charcoal or pea gravel. Not sure what the best thing will be to do, there!

The white guppy was definitely dead, and the black one went a couple of hours ago, so they've been taken out. The remaining one, and the four minnows, seem not exactly happy but not as unhappy. Have to see what happens, I suspect.

 

[waterdrop]

Ah wonderful, your good description of the Biorb 60 filter system has triggered my memory and I've even had a look-see at their web site. The big issue we usually have is with the disk that has the "resins" in it. What that actually seems to be is a mix of Zeolite and Carbon. Zeolite is a chemical resin that removes ammonia using a chemical method rather than a biological one like what's hoped for with the bacteria on the ceramic surfaces. Technically, what Biorb is trying to do is to hopefully have the ammonia procede from the tank water directly across the ceramics (being pulled in that direction by the bubble tube working on an undergravel filter principle.) The ammonia will feed any beneficial (autotrophic) bacteria present and they will attach to the ceramics and build colonies with within sticky biofilms they will create on the ceramic. Then the water will be drawn through the disk and any "leftover" ammonia will be grabbed by the Zeolite particles and any excess organics will be "adsorbed" by the carbon particles. The problems come in actually getting the right performance level out of the zeolite and carbon. What can occur is that the Zeolite will be "too strong" and will chemically remove virtually all the ammonia from the water, never allowing the biofilter to cycle (grow bacteria) in the first place. Another major problem of zeolite is that it can lead to a false sense of security about the tank ammonia levels and then when it becomes saturated (as it inevitably does) the ammonia level suddenly skyrockets and kills the fish. The problem with carbon is quite different and less important. Carbon is a good "tool" the aquarist uses but its used optionally for particular problems and only put in the filter to meet those problems. It is used to clear medications after use and to clear yellow tannins from new bogwood. It gets saturated in less than 3 days and is useless from then on, so when used it is pulled each 3 days and tossed. Fish retailers and fish device manufacturers have a long history of over-selling carbon's positive uses so that they can use it to drive constant sales of cartridges, disks and inserts of all types.

So now it should be becoming clear why people replace the disk contents with other things! You want that zeolite out of there for your fishless cycle. You want as much biomedia (sponges, ceramics etc.) as possible. The other common filter media is polyfloss or fine sponge that serves as a "water polisher" (technically, a fine mechanical media) to get very small particles out. The trick with fine mechanical media is not having it clog up too soon and require too frequent cleaning or replacement.

I am ambivalent about the overall filter design - I can see why different members have gone different ways about it, either just changing the disk aspect or in more extreme cases deciding to somehow use a different filter or just going to a different small tank system altogether and using a simple sponge filter in the biorb as a quarantine/hospital tank. An underground (UG) filter system pulling through good ceramics should set up as a pretty good biofilter. The negatives will be the eventual need to keep the mulm and larger debris clean from whereever it collects in the very bottom of the thing. Maybe some biorb users could speak to this. Its not clear how hard it would be to gravel vac these things or whether complete tear-downs are necessary every month or so (?)... otherwise the mulm buildup may have a negative impact on filter flow and/or allow excessive nitrate/organics buildup... but maybe they are easier to clean than I'm imagining. One other forum you might post in would be the betta subforum as a lot of betta people get biorbs.

Gosh I feel like I sound like some officious aquarist only liking big tanks when I don't mean to be that way at all, just trying to help you get started getting the right help!

~~waterdrop~~

 

[FlickGC]

Gosh I feel like I sound like some officious aquarist only liking big tanks when I don't mean to be that way at all, just trying to help you get started getting the right help!

No, not at all! Thank you for the explanation! It does sound like the Biorb filters aren't much cop, though, which is a shame. I think we need to investigate the best way of replacing the insides of the filter: I've seen a couple of guides to changing the makeup of the filter, and that might be the way to go.

I just wish we'd done a bit more research beforehand. If we had, we probably wouldn't have gone with the tank we did. Ah well, such is life. I just hope that the rest of the fish survive, even if it does sound like it would have been better to ignore the instructions and condition it in the normal way.

(I'm glad we didn't buy a big box of Biorb replacement filters, though!)

 

[FlickGC]

(Sorry for the double post!)

Just as an update, the ammonia's down to zero and we haven't lost any more overnight.

This time, I'm putting my foot down about how quickly we add more fish!

 

[waterdrop]

We've just had a discussion in one of the -other- Biorb threads that's active and its clear that one option is to remove the carbon/zeolite from the disc chamber, let the sponge be moved down to the lower position (so it sees the water first) and then fill in (not too packed, not too loose) with simple polyfloss (white angelhair looking stuff you should be able to get in a big bag at your LFS or as pillow stuffing at Walmart type places as long as it isn't sprayed with fire retardant chemical) that can serve as a "fine mechanical media" meaning that it gets the smallest particles of debris out of the water. It will probably need replacing more often as when you go to squeeze clean it in tank water, like you do with your sponge, it usually breaks down into mush too much and so its easier to just put some more in from your big bag.

In the other thread we said to try this but to be observant as to whether it might slow the water flow too much... I wonder if you could put your hand around the bubble release area and roughly judge the water movement somehow prior to doing this modification and then try to judge it again after the carbon/zeolite was replaced by the repositioned sponge with the polyfloss on top of it?

~~waterdrop~~