Great Low Budget Planted Tank - Really Need Help

[phishyphil]

This reallyis a great thread,

How much should i be spending on plants for a 4 ft 200 litre tank if i was to use undemanding plants such as crypts, java fern and anubias?

So Here's my understanding on what i need to do.

1) Buy lots of easy manageable plants to plant heavy my tank
2) Keep lightting low at 1 wpg with T5 Lights
3) Do not do water changes unless necessary!
4) Add Weekly Does of James All in one Fertiliser as the fish will create the vital nutrients needed for the tank

Is this the general jist to get started? I really want to master this and i am keen to learn, so if im talking absolute rubbish then feel free to shout and scream at me

thankyou for all your inputs this is an awesome thread and site

Phil

 

[KittyKat]

Yes, it is possible. You are never going to manage a high-tech setup on a budget, but you should be ok for a low-tech. That's not far off from my main display tank (link in my sig) and I have personally never had much interest in high-tech setups anyway.

Don't make blanket statements. Most of my high-tech setups have been on a budget.

But what sort of budget? The difference between setting up CO[sub]2[/sub] and maintaining it, compared to not doing so, is quite high.. unless you are talking about DIY yeast mix? But that is not stable enough or on a large enough scale for most larger tanks. And then what about the running costs? Brighter lights, which are often used in high-tech setups often cost 2-3 times more (and sometimes more) to run compared to dimmer lights. At least I have always had to pay for my water, so daily or large weekly water changes also add up in cost, compared to small weekly or no water changes. And there is also the fertiliser, agreed that if you mix up your own it is considerably cheaper than buying pre-mixed, but it is still more than not buying any at all, or dosing in smaller amounts.

Agreed that it is possible to DIY and to be creative to do a high-tech setup considerably cheaper than if you buy everything ready-to-go, but any high-tech setup, by definition, will be a lot more expensive than any low-tech setup in terms of equipment costs and running costs.

 

[festo]

Are we talking about these set ups WITH a mature filter
or not?
i know it would help but what if you dont have a mature filter?
thanks,
this is really interesting.

 

[BigTom]

If you have plenty of healthy, growing plants then you can stock and not worry about cycling your filter (it will cycle 'silently' over time). However, this really does require a sufficient number of happy plants to be effective.

 

[KittyKat]

If you have plenty of healthy, growing plants then you can stock and not worry about cycling your filter (it will cycle 'silently' over time). However, this really does require a sufficient number of happy plants to be effective.

Yes, silent cycling works.. but I recommend that beginners stay away from it and fishless cycle every time because one needs to be able to make sure the plants survive or it will quickly become a fish-in cycle..

 

[BigTom]

True, which is why I emphasised the need to make sure the plants are doing well. I always feel that the time people spend cycling could just as easily be used getting plants established, but it does involve people using their nouse a bit - it's a lot trickeir to write a failproof guide to establishing a planted tank than it is to write one for cycling

 

[SuperColey1]

Agreed that it is possible to DIY and to be creative to do a high-tech setup considerably cheaper than if you buy everything ready-to-go, but any high-tech setup, by definition, will be a lot more expensive than any low-tech setup in terms of equipment costs and running costs.

Not necessarily. 'hi-tec' by definition just means CO2 and proper fertilisation. Many people will say it means hi-tec in terms of equipment but I would say different.

So taking that into account:
Lights - Cost no more because I would still use the same
Ferts - Cost a teny bit more but you still need to fert a lo-tec tank. fish and fish waste is rarely enough for a heavily planted tank.
CO2 - yeast and sugar mix is the only real additional cost here. Circa £1 per week means it is quite a pricy thing.
water changes - I water my garden. water changes go into the water butt. That means I spend nothing because if 20 litres of fresh water goes into the tank that means 20 litres less comes out of the tap for the garden. They cancel each other out.

So by true definition a hi tec tank is gonna cost £1 a year or so more for the ferts and £50 or so for the CO2.

Are we talking about these set ups WITH a mature filter
or not?
i know it would help but what if you dont have a mature filter?

The last time I looked new fish setups don't come with mature filters The filter in the 23 litre I am talking about is using a bright pink internal that came with it....unmatured.
I'll put some pics up later. Taken them but doing other things at mo.

Andy

 

[festo]

This is getting more confusing by the minute,
Fishless cycling
plants+light+ammonia = algae.
therefore it is better to cycle without plants.

silent cycle
plants+light+fish is ok.

fish produce ammonia
so
plants+light+fish(ammonia)=algae.
am i missing something?

 

[BigTom]

That's because with fishless cycling there will be excess ammonia in the water column, which allows algae to grow; whilst with a silent cycle you should have enough plants to keep ammonia almost at zero, as they take it up as its produced (again, conditional on having enough happy, growing plants relative to fish load).

You have to think about how the whole system is operating, rather than trying to abstract it.

 

[festo]

That's because with fishless cycling there will be excess ammonia in the water column, which allows algae to grow; whilst with a silent cycle you should have enough plants to keep ammonia almost at zero, as they take it up as its produced (again, conditional on having enough happy, growing plants relative to fish load).

You have to think about how the whole system is operating, rather than trying to abstract it.

Now that makes sense,
Thought i lost the majority of my 2 dozen brain cells.
thanks.

 

[festo]

So would this be right,
say a 200ltr tank with maybe 75% of the substrate covered with for instance
various mosses dwarf grass,(or is it neccessary to have stem plants?)
WITHOUT a mature filter,and after weeks of healthy growing,
would it then be ok to slowly add fish for example a dozen harlequin rasboras,
and slowly add fish as the weeks go by,
would this work?

 

[BigTom]

Mosses and most carpetting plants are very slow growing (at least in these sort of conditions) and not great at uptake of ammonia. If that is defintely the way you want to go then I would add a decent amount of hornwart/elodea/water sprite to keep on top of any ammonia. Most carpetting plants will also need a nutritious substrate, so bear that in mind - it makes having fast growing plants vital at the start of the tank.

If you get the plants healthy, the rest should be fine.

 

[SuperColey1]

Most carpetting plants will also need a nutritious substrate

Nothing NEEDS a nutritious substrate. Everything needs nutrients. Where they get the nutrients from is the question. Nutritious substrates are mainly a back up for if you forget to dose the water column. Many people grow all sorts in setups with plain pea gravel including HC, glosso etc.

Plus a nutritious substrate doesn't really fit into the 'budget' theme unless it is a compost type and then you will need to water change and will definately cycle at the beginning.

Photos as promised bit late because I had to get the kids from school then cook some Octopus for dinner, then couldn't get on the PC because the one upstairs is down until tomorrow and the wife was looking at silly priced fancy muslin squares and I daren't interupt her in case she buys them to pee me off. Just to introduce this little tank's story first:

Tank was bought 4 weeks ago at circa 10am. It was £15 and had a pink rim and bottom.
10-30am took top and bottom rim off and sprayed black. Put supplied pink and white gravel and crystal butterflies away in my 'for future scapes' box
11am put rim and bottom back on and put in bottom of emersed cupboard, noticed floor was 'bowed' so put a folded teat-towel under it to 'fill the voids a little.
11-10am put 1 full 2kg bag of new non pink and white gravel in the bottom.
11-15am Put 23 litres of fresh tap water in.
11-20am put some plants from my main tank (was in a holding state at the time)
11-25am Put filter in and plugged it in.
11-30am Started acclimitising shrimp.
1-30pm released the shrimp.

So this is 4 hours after I bought the tank (its actually today and 4 weeks on but looks pretty mcuh the same to me. lol.) No idea what media is in the filter. Didn't open it up, just put it straight in. Mainly wanting flow so doesn't bother me what gubbins is in the compartment at the bottom. Most likely sponge I should think. The light is 3 x 3W 5500K LEDs (underpowered so it is actually 7.35W (1.2WPG which in LED terms is super highlight equivalent to circa 4WPG IMO or 2x equivalent T5HO) that were over some emersed tubs that I moved out (mosses that went into the main tank.)

This is it's home in my emersed cupboard:

And I think these shrimp are alive 4 weeks later

Summary :
New tank
New gravel
Unmatured filter
Fresh Tap water
Good amount of plants
No water changes
No CO2
0.5ml NPK/0.2ml trace weekly
= No cycle, no new tank syndrome, no livestock deaths

NOTE= If I had chosen to put compost or a nutritious substrate underneath I would have done water changes at the start (or at least until I got lazy and couldn't be bothered to)

Like I said earlier. This isn't a show tank, no scaping. More a 'holding area for plants I'm not using just like the emersed tubs above it. It's also another space to breed shrimp

p.s. Tom Just in ase you're worried about stressed shrimp yours came out of the main tank. lol. There are only 30 or so in this tank at the moment until the population explodes

Andy

 

[coldcazzie]

Love the pink filter Andy!

 

[KittyKat]

Agreed that it is possible to DIY and to be creative to do a high-tech setup considerably cheaper than if you buy everything ready-to-go, but any high-tech setup, by definition, will be a lot more expensive than any low-tech setup in terms of equipment costs and running costs.

Not necessarily. 'hi-tec' by definition just means CO2 and proper fertilisation. Many people will say it means hi-tec in terms of equipment but I would say different.

So taking that into account:
Lights - Cost no more because I would still use the same
Ferts - Cost a teny bit more but you still need to fert a lo-tec tank. fish and fish waste is rarely enough for a heavily planted tank.
CO2 - yeast and sugar mix is the only real additional cost here. Circa £1 per week means it is quite a pricy thing.
water changes - I water my garden. water changes go into the water butt. That means I spend nothing because if 20 litres of fresh water goes into the tank that means 20 litres less comes out of the tap for the garden. They cancel each other out.

So by true definition a hi tec tank is gonna cost £1 a year or so more for the ferts and £50 or so for the CO2.

..how would that scale up to a 200 litre tank? From what I understand, yeast CO[sub]2[/sub] does not work for those sort of volumes or have I been reading misleading sources..? What sort of fertiliser quantity and dosing can one expect to need to use for the OP's setup? What water change schedule would you expect?