Girl Beats Guy In Breeding ?!?!

[bobbybetta]

i have had a blue betta for roughly two months and he is now fully grown. A few weeks ago I decided i wanted to breed him so I went out and purchased a female also blue ( im not so sure it is now). I fed both male and female twice a day with frozen blood worms, especially for the female to prepare for the brutal courtship. The male's bowl was right next to the females tank and i could see both taking interest in each other. The male flared when he saw her but the female flashed a little bit, not significant. I noticed her gaining a significant amount in size and noticed what i believe to be the eggs under front fins (little white speck and definetly not a fungus). I figured the time was ripe. So I cleaned the tank (10 gallon with heater at 80 degrees and with live plants) and i turned down the filter system so as to not disrupt the eggnest that the male would build and then put the male in the tank with the female. both flared up, the female flaring significantly more than i had ever seen before (the gills on the side of its head dwarfed the male's), and then to my amazement, the female started beating up the male. I let it go for awhile but then she started ripping up the males tail and fins. The male seemed scared, the female was definetly in control. I took the female out and let the male in the new tank hoping for him to acquaint with the new surroundings, to making a nest again and recooperate. He seems very startled now and doesnt eat as well. Now, is the female suppose to be like that. I know for a fact that the female is fully developed but is it possible that it is a male that never fully developed the long fins? It does have fins but they arent long and pretty and the body is certainly not as colorful. should i wait until the male is well and try once more? I also have a red male betta but i heard that mismatched colors dont go well.

 

[catxx]

what do you wish to gain from breeding bettas? as most people will tell you on here to only breed from quality pairs rather than petshop fish, are yours petshop fish? and have homes planned for the many babies you may get. (don't mean to get all negative heh)

a female is ready to breed when she shows vertical stripes down her body. if she's not ready she WILL beat on the male, or the other way round. put the male in a hospital tank and treat him for his wounds for a week or two and let him get his confidence back. it can take several weeks for males and females to be conditioned to each other. and several days for them to spawn. the female shouldn't really be put into the tank until the male has built a bubble nest.

have you got pictures of them? as she got eggy and showed an oviposter shes 98% female, but you do get the odd transvestite!

 

[starrynightxxi]

also, you had it backwards. you should have had the male in the tank and the female in the bowl. the female shouldn't be introduced until a bubblenest has been built. There is some very good info on breeding bettas in the pinned betta faqs at the top of this forum that will tell you how to do it properly. You should look through them and decide if you are really up for all the work that is involved. It's unlikely that you will get a return on the investment. Bettas have been known to have as many as 500-600 eggs in a go and you need to be prepared to feed and care for them. They'll need specific foods that are small enough for them to eat as hatchlings (baby brine shrimp, infusoria). Also you will have to change water constantly, and then when they start maturing males, and possibly some females, will have to be seperated out, meaning you'll be cleaning their jars every day.

If you think you can handle the time and money required, then by all means go ahead and breed, but definately take a look at the pinned topics up above and consider getting a nice breeder quality pair. Petshop bettas, whether veiltail or otherwise, tend not to sell too well.

 

[DarkEntity]

Betta arent like other fish where you just put a male and female together and bingo, You really need to do some research on them prior to trying anything like that again. UK Betta forum have some of the premium breeders in the UK and some really good info.

If you have one of the specialty bred fancy tails then im surprised its still alive as the females will be Plakats more than likely so probably 3 x stronger than the wimpy inbred males that the LFS carry.

 

[jollysue]

Please research before attempting to breed your pets. It sounds as if you are not sure what tail types you have attempted to breed. It is an important matter in breeding to understand or get guidance in genetics.

Some fish are easy to breed: put a shoal of Corydoras aeneus in a mature tank, and they will spawn, and some fry might even survive. Some fish are more complex. Betta are among the more complex. Both the male and the female are aggressive and as stated here, it is important to have some knowledge before and guidance when breeding them.

The female's white spot was most likely an ovipositor not eggs. Betta mating ritual is complex and full of subtle signals.

This was reckless, and the fish has suffered. I hope he recovers. Keep him very clean.

 

[fishcollector]

Are you sure that the female was not a plakad male or fighter betta, but then about the eggs?

 

[bobbybetta]

now, two days after the attempt, the male seems fine and is continuing normal activity. besides a hit in his beauty, he seems ok. Im going to keep the tank especially clean and keep him well fed but is there anything else i can do? I checked the female and she does have 3 black striped down the length of her body. My father, gradfather, and i each have experience in raising fish and are prepared for the task and although this is my first undertaking with bettas, my father and grandfather have experience and they have been around for the process. Both have been successful in betta breeding although they do note that the male spawn never achieved beauty as the father had. these bettas are store fish but this is recreational breeding and i have no intention of producing show fish nor for profits. I had already researched in caring for the fry and was prepared for daily cleaning and already have baby brine shrimp to feed them. For the three of us though, never having problems with the betta mating process, we were truly surprised. I realize the ramifications of failed breeding attempts and the physicalness of bettas and i admit in fault for having the tank arrangments mismatched but i have already corrected that. The male is already making a nest, which i have heard is a sign of healthiness and Im thinking of waiting 3 or 4 weeks and then attempting again. if this failure does occur again should i take it as A.) an impotent male B.) a mean feminist transvesdite female or C.) simple incompatability?
also i have very limited knowledge in tail types but i believe the blue to have a viel tail which of course is least desireable type but i see no problem with its aesthetics. the red male i believe also has a viel tail but it is reminiscent of chinese style dragons, spikyish. the female, to me, has a normal tail and i dont see any way of classifying it except that it is blue and functions.

 

[starrynightxxi]

The male should heal fine kept in a clean tank with good food.

well, the female has stripes, but are they vertical or horizontal? vertical stripes (up and down) are a sign of health and dominance, but also a willingness to breed. Horizontal stripes (nose to tail) indicate stress.

Spawns from well bred fish should not necessarily create fish that are "less beautiful" than either parent. This is a problem with petshop fish who haven't been bred for any reason but to make more fish and with no attention paid to their particular colors or hardiness. Bettas are often mass bred overseas and are not high quality, thus they cannot produce high quality offspring.

The reason we suggest breeding breeder-quality non-veiltail (VT) bettas is not their aesthetic quality but because of the increased likliehood that they will find suitable homes. Most bettas in petshops die in their dirty little cups. General rule of thumb is if it's a veil tail, or you don't know what it is (in the case of females) don't breed it.

Sometimes certain males and certain females just don't get along and there isn't anything that can be done about it. I also wanted to mention that because these are pet shop bettas, they are likely beyond there most productive period. Ideally bettas should be bred between their 3rd and 6th month, and most bettas that are at stores are already 6months to a year. This can lead to infertility, or simply having no idea of what to do with one another other than attack, so be very careful.

I made a chart of tail types for you, but left off VT as I believe you know what they are already.

Plakat - short tails. All tail types below can also occur as plakats. abbreviation: PK

http/www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auc...&1165643127

Halfmoon - smooth edged tails with rays reaching 180 degrees or beyond (Over-halfmoon/OHM). abbreviation: HM

http/www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auc...&1164647502

Delta/Super Delta - smooth edged tails, more common than halfmoons, rays do not reach or exceed 180 degrees. abbreviation: SD

http/www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auc...&1164561275

Crowntail - spikey tails, come in HM and SD (if occurring on a veiltail, it's known as combtail). abbreviation: CT

http/www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auc...&1164633376

Double Tail - smooth edged tails, this fish actually has two caudal (tail) fins, and is very sturdy bodied. Often occurs in HM, SD. abbreviation: DT

http/www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auc...&1165127717

This is by no means an exhaustive list as new types continue to show up such as rose tail, spade tail (old style), and others, but they aren't frequently distinguished from the list above.

There are also "rules" on which colors to breed with what. There are plenty of folk who know about this stuff on this forum (not me ) if you are interested in that as well.



if you REALLY want to see some nice bettas, you can check out the pinned topic "The Best of Aquabid". It'll have you drooling if you like pretty bettas And they aren't all completely unaffordable. Aquabid.com is a wonderful site

 

[DarkEntity]

If you really want some nice Betta check out some of the Thai/Malasian/Cambodian sellers sites

 

[bobbybetta]

the females stripes are head to tail but thats not permanent? i will continue to watch both of them. the blue male is definetly a viel tail but from the pictures the red one seems to have a crown tail. as i said im going to try again later but for my red male, being that it is not a viel tail, is it a better choice for mating?

 

[starrynightxxi]

nope, stripes aren't permanent, they're indications of the how the fish is feeling.

color wise, red and blue are not a good mix as the goal of most breeders is to reduce the amount of irridescents in reds (ie: the blue sheen on red/yellow/orange fish) and reduce the red wash on irridescents (ie:the red on blue/turquoise/steel fish).

because these are pet store bettas, even though he appears to be a crowntail, he is likely still a mutt of CT and VT, and who knows how many color variants. I am not going to say you can't breed these fish and give them to the store or get rid of them somehow, but think of it this way; if you wanted to breed dogs, would you breed two random animals from the pound that didn't have papers, or would you breed two papered animals from good (though not necessarily show) lines?

that said, no, he's not really a better prospect for breeding, in that none of these fish are. HOWEVER, if you are intent on breeding them regardless of what these fish may or may not be, you could certainly give it a shot, as long as you are wiling to care for any resulting fry you can't get rid of

 

[jollysue]

Female Betta do attack and even kill the male if she is not ready to breed or she is dissatisfied with the male's attentions. Of course a male can also seriously hurt a female. It is a semi frequent occurrence that a pair will not take to each other, especially if they have not been conditioned and prepared properly. It sounds as if starrynight is ready to help you achieve a successful spawn.

At this point your male is healing and the female is stressed. Also, they do not sound like they are a suitible pair. Successful breeders have some knowledge of the inherited genetics of the fish they propose to breed. Then they have some idea of what the resulting spawn will produce. But even with that they can not guarantee that the couple will be attracted to each other.

Show quality does not need to be the goal to be concerned about the resulting fry's appearance.

I am being a little tough on you; it isn't personal. Please continue to let a more experienced breeder help you with your project.

 

[OohFeeshy]

Both being bog-standard VTs, most likely they are well past their breeding prime. Apart from any genetics issues, the fact is that most pet shop bought VTs are almost a year old, and considering the don't have long life bred into them, thats pretty old.

 

[jollysue]

Both being bog-standard VTs, most likely they are well past their breeding prime. Apart from any genetics issues, the fact is that most pet shop bought VTs are almost a year old, and considering the don't have long life bred into them, thats pretty old.

I see this frequently regarding pet shop Bettas. I appreciate the qualification "most" made here, but still I would like to say that not all pet shops or even petcos offer 1+ year old Bettas in dirty cups. I have bought several VYs from my local lps and they have all been young, slim adolecsents and not nearly their full size. The female I got recently from Petco was not an inch long. I know this is not the standard, from what I hear, but also not all LFS and LPS sell VTs that are mal bred, sick old men.

Having digressed from the topic, let me also say that if I were to decide to breed VTs, I would find excellent breeding stock with good bonafides to do it with.

 

[OohFeeshy]

Oh, I know not all are- but the majority of shops prefer mature males with, obviously, larger finnange and often more intese colouration. Females, actually, are often younger, the logic being the breeders want to get rid of them ASAP to make room for more.