German Blue Ram Compatibility

[PDSimon]

I'd say max of 30

 

[mark4785]

The key is water changes to reduce nitrate, if it dropped only from 160 to 80 I would hate to imagine what your nitrate actually was lol. Of course the test kits aren't too fantastic! If you were to add a GBR you're thinking of aiming to keep the Nitrates as low as possible ~20ish ppm for nitrates up to a maximum of 40-50. There are a lot of different opinions on this but the lower the better.

Well the key to keeping it within that range would be minimal feeding as well right? Are there small pellet foods available that are highly digestable, low waste and which contain high concentrations of the right nutrition? I don't want to end up obsessing about feeding them little and the end result being they starve to death lol.

My pond KH is around 9dH so my PH sticks to 8.2 despite 14 fish being fed 3-4 times a day in a 1400 litre pond. Somebody within this thread stated that if I achieve a low GH (as required for the fish I'm interested in) the KH will also be of a low level too so I really can't treat the fish in the same way I treat my pond fish otherwise I'll be dealing with multiple PH crashes.

 

[JoshuaA]

The key is water changes to reduce nitrate, if it dropped only from 160 to 80 I would hate to imagine what your nitrate actually was lol. Of course the test kits aren't too fantastic! If you were to add a GBR you're thinking of aiming to keep the Nitrates as low as possible ~20ish ppm for nitrates up to a maximum of 40-50. There are a lot of different opinions on this but the lower the better.

Well the key to keeping it within that range would be minimal feeding as well right? Are there small pellet foods available that are highly digestable, low waste and which contain high concentrations of the right nutrition? I don't want to end up obsessing about feeding them little and the end result being they starve to death lol.

My pond KH is around 9dH so my PH sticks to 8.2 despite 14 fish being fed 3-4 times a day in a 1400 litre pond. Somebody within this thread stated that if I achieve a low GH (as required for the fish I'm interested in) the KH will also be of a low level too so I really can't treat the fish in the same way I treat my pond fish otherwise I'll be dealing with multiple PH crashes.

No the key would be water changes, don't starve your fish or over feed them so you can keep the water good for them.

 

[mark4785]

First off, you need a decent supplier. GBRs from Holland, Germany or Czech Republic are the best. Dont touch anything from the Far East, they are poor specimens.
After that it's just a case of keeping the water clean with frequent water changes. I find soft water is a must with these fish however a reliable aquarist has had success when using hard water.

Can I risk keeping both the German Blue Ram and Bolivian Ram in hard water (GH of about 9dH) or will this be in anyway detrimental to trial out?

Ideally I'd like to keep them in hard water with a PH of 7.5 come to think of it, because this is naturally what my tap water is like.

 

[RadaR]

mark, that would be fine.


Btw all, here is a link explaining that it's not nitrates that are causing the pH to decrease. Have a read
http/www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/water/bioacid.shtml

 

[PDSimon]

The nitric acid bit explains what I was saying.

I suppose when fishless cycling with such large amounts of ammonia that effects it and I have no need to worry even with full stocking I guess...

A good example of the nitric acid is when my pH crashed, I did a 100% waterchange with fresh water, added 5ppm of ammonia and it took 24 hours for my pH to go from 7.5 to 6, not good.

 

[RadaR]

Apparently the nitric acid buildup takes a really long time. It's not thought to occur in the space of a few weeks , needs more time.

 

[mark4785]

I would not worry about any pH crash

nitrates have a tendancy to attach to the substrate or hang around you might say, at the bottom, apparently! Thats why WD always says to do a gravel clean...

you'll need quite a lot of plants to absorb enough nitrate, more RadaRs area you just might need to do more frequent waterchanges like josh said rather than rely on plants. You've got to experiment a little to see what works. Like Radar was saying if you used RO water it could be used in the waterchanges to keep the nitrate low and keep the pH the same


and radar, its not just an assumption it's just what we've been told, it's just we are still newbies and we rely on more experienced members such as oldman47 and waterdrop to give us information. If you're curious about the subject I would PM one of them. As you said fully stocking probably wouldn't do anything I was just curious if it would ever effect pH.

Well, one manual gravel cleaner product by 'Algarde' has arrived in the post. I am a little puzzled as to when I can use it because it won't just remove nitrates from the sand substrate, it will also remove the pure ammonia. Surely that will disrupt the fishless cycle. At the same time I'm eagar to use it because although 99% of my ammonia and nitrite is being processed within 12 hours I still don't know a good technique for getting my nitrate down to 20 ppm.

 

[RadaR]

I am a little puzzled as to when I can use it because it won't just remove nitrates from the sand substrate,

I still don't know a good technique for getting my nitrate down to 20 ppm.

The link I posted clarifies that nitrates do not cause the pH to decrease therefore do not cause the stall. It's all down to nitric acid. Read the link

 

[PDSimon]

So what does cause the pH to go down so quickly? Your link said this was for water that is allowing this various chemicals to build up, so why when fishless cycling is it that you can have 100% fresh water yet the pH drop very quickly after adding ammonia? the link didn't explain to me how a build up must happen over time, nor does it cover a level of ammonia as high as 5ppm being added everyday... which is a hell of a lot thats why some cycles build up 160ppm nitrate within a week or even over 50ppm of nitrite if its not processing yet.


Mark I don't quite understand what you're mean, why are you trying to remove nitrates, you don't have any fish in there? Worry about nitrates when they get to 160ppm when fish are not in the tank. I don't know how this cleaner removes ammonia and nitrite? sounds like non sense to me or am I missing something totally.

If it just syphons water out of the tank, do it inbetween the 12-24 hour point where you have no ammonia or nitrite, and redose at the normal 24 hour point with 5ppm.

Controling nitrate levels is also aided by what your nitrate level is from the tap... I assume you want to keep it below 20 for some sort of sensitive fish?

 

[mark4785]

Hi PDSimon,

In one of your replies above, you stated that WD said that nitrates are present in the substrate. The gravel cleaner I ordered as seen here removes trapped dirt and presumably nitrates along with it.

I know I shouldn't be worrying about the nitrate level given that I don't have any fish yet but I was wanting to try the gravel cleaner out and also do a 90% water change to see what effect it has on all the water stats. I know ammonia and nitrite would go to zero and my PH will drop to 7.4 once I re-fill the tank with dechlorinated water, BUT I don't know what nitrate level I will achieve and what effect disturbing the substrate will have on the beneficial bacteria. Due to being in the unknown I was going to do an early water change and clean the gravel and make a log of the water chemistry stats after wards so I have a good idea of what to do should I have a build up of nitrates (or other toxin) when the tank is stocked. I do plan to stock the aquarium on friday so I guess I'm getting a bit anxious about doing everything perfectly.

 

[chesterjohn]

Hi PDSimon,

In one of your replies above, you stated that WD said that nitrates are present in the substrate. The gravel cleaner I ordered as seen here removes trapped dirt and presumably nitrates along with it.

I know I shouldn't be worrying about the nitrate level given that I don't have any fish yet but I was wanting to try the gravel cleaner out and also do a 90% water change to see what effect it has on all the water stats. I know ammonia and nitrite would go to zero and my PH will drop to 7.4 once I re-fill the tank with dechlorinated water, BUT I don't know what nitrate level I will achieve and what effect disturbing the substrate will have on the beneficial bacteria. Due to being in the unknown I was going to do an early water change and clean the gravel and make a log of the water chemistry stats after wards so I have a good idea of what to do should I have a build up of nitrates (or other toxin) when the tank is stocked. I do plan to stock the aquarium on friday so I guess I'm getting a bit anxious about doing everything perfectly.

Fish waste is what causes the nitrates to be in the gravel, you don't have any fish, so a gravel vac isn't needed. If you do a 90% water change, you can take it from the top of the tank, and as long as the water is de-chlorinated, there won't be any damage to your bacteria.

Doing the 90% water change will give you a nitrate level similar to that of your tap water. My tap has 10-20ppm (it's impossible to tell the difference between those colours on the chart).

The best way would be to get some Bolivian rams along with whatever stock you plan on getting on Friday as these are more tolerant, have a temperature of 26-27C and monitor how the nitrates build up over a month or so with your regular water changes.

Then you could ask a lfs about there water stats and if they have the GBRs in similar Ph and hardness to your water then they would be a good choice. 7.4 and 9dKH isn't perfect, but it's good enough.

If you think your nitrate level is too high, you can buy filter sponges that remove nitrates to add to your filter, think about planting your tank if you wanted, or do more water changes.

Using your tap water will be much better as the Ph will be close to that of the tank, and you won't have to worry about it swinging when you do water changes.

 

[RadaR]

So what does cause the pH to go down so quickly? Your link said this was for water that is allowing this various chemicals to build up, so why when fishless cycling is it that you can have 100% fresh water yet the pH drop very quickly after adding ammonia? the link didn't explain to me how a build up must happen over time, nor does it cover a level of ammonia as high as 5ppm being added everyday... which is a hell of a lot thats why some cycles build up 160ppm nitrate within a week or even over 50ppm of nitrite if its not processing yet.

The nitric acid occurs due to an active biological filter that produces an acidification. Therefore, lots of ammonia and time means the bacteria will be working their socks off. Therefore they produce waste/biprodcuts and hey presto, nitric acid.

 

[jacko32]

what was this original topic about ?

 

[JoshuaA]

The nitric acid bit explains what I was saying.

I suppose when fishless cycling with such large amounts of ammonia that effects it and I have no need to worry even with full stocking I guess...

A good example of the nitric acid is when my pH crashed, I did a 100% waterchange with fresh water, added 5ppm of ammonia and it took 24 hours for my pH to go from 7.5 to 6, not good.

I'm still a bit miffed here... I wouldn't say 2/3 day old water was "Mature" and I wouldn't say it coincides with RadaR link. The point I'm getting here is I would be adding 5ppm of Ammonia it would be going into Nitrate, I would have to do 100% water changes every 3 days because it would crash so dramatically and the only thing showing up on the test kit was Nitrate which was so far off the scale.

Now your link instantly claims this

As water matures in the aquarium environment, its pH tends to drop slowly

So now listening to what me and Simon have previously said, pH crashing isn't the same as pH dropping slowly is it? Or neither is 3 day old water being "Mature". I don't believe the article you have linked us to explains why our pH would crash during a fish-less cycle. I still believe it has something to do with excessive 160+ Nitrate build ups in water without Bicarbonate of Soda.