Er... this isn't quite how it happens. I do work in a hospital, btw.
Free Range
- Thread starter Noahs ark6
- Start date
Er... this isn't quite how it happens. I do work in a hospital, btw.
OP
OP
Noahs ark6
Fish Herder
Hehehehe, this made me giggle
FishFanatic04
I'm in Planted School.
It was the most basic description I could give of the Plastibell, without getting all gross and detailed.
Putting a little animal cruelty into perspective on castration. I wasn't being scientific.
No but you were completely wrong? lol
What you dont realise is that the cows WANT to be milked, if they arent milked it is unbearably painful for them and they risk getting mastitis if ty arent milked twice a day! Think of the cows uder...and the teat.. now imagine what it would feel like(for the cow!!) when the teats were so swollen that the skin was splitting and full of pus and burning up.
Funny enough, cows dont want this! All a farmer has to to is open the door and the cows all walk into their pens by choice! You should see that happen, its awesome! Then they just stand here munching their daily ration of pellets whilst they are relieved of their milk.
Milking routine
http
/www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8lKLMBP8PE
You have to skip a minute in but the cows move their legs so the machine can be attatched and stand waiting for their turn even though not caged up!
What you dont realise is that the cows WANT to be milked, if they arent milked it is unbearably painful for them and they risk getting mastitis if ty arent milked twice a day! Think of the cows uder...and the teat.. now imagine what it would feel like(for the cow!!) when the teats were so swollen that the skin was splitting and full of pus and burning up.
Funny enough, cows dont want this! All a farmer has to to is open the door and the cows all walk into their pens by choice! You should see that happen, its awesome! Then they just stand here munching their daily ration of pellets whilst they are relieved of their milk.
Milking routine
http
/www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8lKLMBP8PEYou have to skip a minute in but the cows move their legs so the machine can be attatched and stand waiting for their turn even though not caged up!
FishFanatic04
I'm in Planted School.
I understand they need to be milked, but I have seen a documentary of dairy farms where the cows are not shuffled and left in the stalls the whole day. Not nice.
hensonc4098
Fish Herder
So many crazy (and some invalid) arguments here!
With regards to the free range original topic:
Egg-laying hens can only lay for a certain length of time before the amount of eggs they produce begins to decrease and they become not worth their staying to the farmer. At this point, the hens are "cleared out", i.e.. killed and replaced with new ones. This is the same whether they are caged hens, barn hens or "free-range". I say "free-range" as this is defined as having some outdoor access. There is no restrictions as to the size or quality of the outdoor access, and so often the outside area is only very small and gravel covered for easier maintenance - not exactly the acres of field people imagine when it comes to free-range.
Caged hens are pretty much worthless when cleared out as they have hardly any meat on them (they're not bred for meat and they haven't exercised to build any muscle) and so are either simply disposed of or made into dog food etc.
Free range hens that are the 0.5% that actually get the required space and outdoor access to build some muscle end up with a bit of meat on them by the time they are cleared out, and so can be used to make food for human consumption. You're never going to get a chicken breast off these guys like you buy on it's own - to make a regular breast-sized piece you're gonna need to mash up a few chickens and mix them together, however you are at least making use of the meat.
This will never however replace the production and rearing of broilers. These are your traditional meat birds, that have been bred throughout the generations to grow faster and be bigger. Put a broiler next to a layer and it'll be about double the size and nearly triple the weight. This is where our chicken meat cuts come from, and will come from for a long time to come, unless everyone decides that they no longer want to eat chicken...
As far as sheep tail-docking goes, I totally agree with what was said about flystrike. Docking the tail reduces the incidence of flystrike greatly (I have never seen a case of flystrike in a docked sheep) and causes the lamb hardly any pain, certainly compared to flystrike. The tail, once a band is applied, will become numb within about half an hour, then fall off within the next week or two.
There are 7 breeds of sheep (the east friesian, finnsheep, gotland, icelandic, romanov, soay and shetland) which are naturally short-tailed and so do not require docking, however these are not viable sheep for meat production as they are too small and skinny. Most of our meat is from lambs which are crossed between mule ewes (tough and hardy sheep that are good mothers) and texel or charollais rams (big and meaty) to produce good, strong, meaty lambs. If short-tailed breeds were used, there would be a lot less lamb meat to go around! There are no breeds that have little or no wool around their back ends, as was suggested. The only reason that you would see a long tailed sheep with short wool around the back end is because it has been clipped, usually around breeding time to allow easier access for the ram. Hair breeds, which look like goats, are common in other countries, but would never survive in the UK as it is too cold.
Someone somewhere was saying about the killing of male dairy calves. Veal is still a very taboo subject, despite UK welfare legislation protecting the animals so that they are as well kept as any other cow. The only difference between veal meat and regular meat is that veal calves are fed only milk until they are ready for slaughter, unlike regular beef which is weaned onto grass and/or concentrates. The problem with trying to make veal out of dairy bulls is that they were never bred to make meat. It's almost the same argument as the chickens! They were bred to be milk producing, and if you've ever seen a dairy cow, you'll see how little meat there is on them - you're not going to get many burgers out of that! Therefore it becomes the case where the cost of raising the cow is going to be more than the amount of money they will make for the meat it makes at slaughter time. It's a sad reality, but farming comes down to money. I've yet to meet a farmer who isn't on a shoestring budget. Every penny counts, and at the moment, raising dairy bulls isn't viable.
Then there was the argument that we shouldn't breed the dairy cows if there's so many bull calves born.
A dairy cow isn't going to keep producing milk if she doesn't have a calf. She needs to have a calf ideally yearly to keep her milk production up. There's not much that can be done to change the fact that approximately 50% of the calves born are going to be male. You all want milk with your tea/coffee/cereal, right?! The only option would be to look into genetically determining the gender of the calf, but then you enter a whole new realm of cost issues, and the subsequent haters saying that "we shouldn't mess with mother nature".
I'm tired typing. No more. That is all.
With regards to the free range original topic:
Egg-laying hens can only lay for a certain length of time before the amount of eggs they produce begins to decrease and they become not worth their staying to the farmer. At this point, the hens are "cleared out", i.e.. killed and replaced with new ones. This is the same whether they are caged hens, barn hens or "free-range". I say "free-range" as this is defined as having some outdoor access. There is no restrictions as to the size or quality of the outdoor access, and so often the outside area is only very small and gravel covered for easier maintenance - not exactly the acres of field people imagine when it comes to free-range.
Caged hens are pretty much worthless when cleared out as they have hardly any meat on them (they're not bred for meat and they haven't exercised to build any muscle) and so are either simply disposed of or made into dog food etc.
Free range hens that are the 0.5% that actually get the required space and outdoor access to build some muscle end up with a bit of meat on them by the time they are cleared out, and so can be used to make food for human consumption. You're never going to get a chicken breast off these guys like you buy on it's own - to make a regular breast-sized piece you're gonna need to mash up a few chickens and mix them together, however you are at least making use of the meat.
This will never however replace the production and rearing of broilers. These are your traditional meat birds, that have been bred throughout the generations to grow faster and be bigger. Put a broiler next to a layer and it'll be about double the size and nearly triple the weight. This is where our chicken meat cuts come from, and will come from for a long time to come, unless everyone decides that they no longer want to eat chicken...
As far as sheep tail-docking goes, I totally agree with what was said about flystrike. Docking the tail reduces the incidence of flystrike greatly (I have never seen a case of flystrike in a docked sheep) and causes the lamb hardly any pain, certainly compared to flystrike. The tail, once a band is applied, will become numb within about half an hour, then fall off within the next week or two.
There are 7 breeds of sheep (the east friesian, finnsheep, gotland, icelandic, romanov, soay and shetland) which are naturally short-tailed and so do not require docking, however these are not viable sheep for meat production as they are too small and skinny. Most of our meat is from lambs which are crossed between mule ewes (tough and hardy sheep that are good mothers) and texel or charollais rams (big and meaty) to produce good, strong, meaty lambs. If short-tailed breeds were used, there would be a lot less lamb meat to go around! There are no breeds that have little or no wool around their back ends, as was suggested. The only reason that you would see a long tailed sheep with short wool around the back end is because it has been clipped, usually around breeding time to allow easier access for the ram. Hair breeds, which look like goats, are common in other countries, but would never survive in the UK as it is too cold.
Someone somewhere was saying about the killing of male dairy calves. Veal is still a very taboo subject, despite UK welfare legislation protecting the animals so that they are as well kept as any other cow. The only difference between veal meat and regular meat is that veal calves are fed only milk until they are ready for slaughter, unlike regular beef which is weaned onto grass and/or concentrates. The problem with trying to make veal out of dairy bulls is that they were never bred to make meat. It's almost the same argument as the chickens! They were bred to be milk producing, and if you've ever seen a dairy cow, you'll see how little meat there is on them - you're not going to get many burgers out of that! Therefore it becomes the case where the cost of raising the cow is going to be more than the amount of money they will make for the meat it makes at slaughter time. It's a sad reality, but farming comes down to money. I've yet to meet a farmer who isn't on a shoestring budget. Every penny counts, and at the moment, raising dairy bulls isn't viable.
Then there was the argument that we shouldn't breed the dairy cows if there's so many bull calves born.
A dairy cow isn't going to keep producing milk if she doesn't have a calf. She needs to have a calf ideally yearly to keep her milk production up. There's not much that can be done to change the fact that approximately 50% of the calves born are going to be male. You all want milk with your tea/coffee/cereal, right?! The only option would be to look into genetically determining the gender of the calf, but then you enter a whole new realm of cost issues, and the subsequent haters saying that "we shouldn't mess with mother nature".
I'm tired typing. No more. That is all.
You misread what I said.
I said if it wasnt for tail docking in sheep, there would be far more incidents of flystrike.And apart from listing a few tailess breeds of sheep etc, you havent had any new ideas on the subject? You don't really need to get het up over it... jeez
hensonc4098
Fish Herder
If it wasn't for tail docking in sheep, there would be far more incidences of flystrike.
Docking tails reduces the incidence of flystrike greatly.
To me, they're the same thing, just reworded...
Also, I'm not trying to bring any new ideas to the table - I'm simply saying that the method that is used currently works, and there currently is no suitable alternative.
About getting het up over it - it bugs me when people form opinions over stuff they know very little about. Consider my paragraphs.......educational.
Docking tails reduces the incidence of flystrike greatly.
To me, they're the same thing, just reworded...
Also, I'm not trying to bring any new ideas to the table - I'm simply saying that the method that is used currently works, and there currently is no suitable alternative.
About getting het up over it - it bugs me when people form opinions over stuff they know very little about. Consider my paragraphs.......educational.
hensonc4098
Fish Herder
BlueDragon
Fish Crazy
If it wasn't for tail docking in sheep, there would be far more incidences of flystrike.
Docking tails reduces the incidence of flystrike greatly.
To me, they're the same thing, just reworded...
Also, I'm not trying to bring any new ideas to the table - I'm simply saying that the method that is used currently works, and there currently is no suitable alternative.
About getting het up over it - it bugs me when people form opinions over stuff they know very little about. Consider my paragraphs.......educational.
I'm not here to start an argument, the reason I haven't replied back till now. But I find it a bit upsetting that you would assume I don't know what I'm talking about. I actually keep up to date with what goes on on Farms, not only through the farmers themselves but through the public information given out on the DEFRA and FAWK websites.
There is an alternitive to tail docking in Lambs, a perfectly safe medication. It's been proven to be safe even for babies and works in a simillar way to fleadrops. That is as far as I understand it. I do aggree that without some form or other of prevention then flystrike would be an awful problem... and I have actually seen it in effected Sheep before. The backend was litrally being eaten away. So I do know what it does to Sheep and to Lambs too. I'm not ignorant of that. But when there is alternitives out there that could prevent the mutilation of newly born Lambs then I cannot keep supporting taildocking. As for it being painless... unfortunatly it's not.
Please don't assume I'm ignorant and don't know what I'm talking about. It does upset me.
I dont think you are ignorant its nice to have an intelligent conversation sometimes
As for lamb tail docking, its much kinder to do it to lambs than adult sheep! As lambs they are less likely to get flystrike... but as sheep, it becomes a much bigger problem! I mean... when i was studying farm work at an agricultural college, we were forever dagging the sheep. In other words... giving them a brazilian but there were only a couple of hundred sheep, not the thousands other farmers have and not up on mountain sides like a lot of farmers sheep are!
Imagine having to shave a sheeps tail and back end several times a year when you have thousands of sheep! Females especially, think of the gunk that ends up in their tails after giving birth! God forbid they get diarrhoea or lumps of muck or brambles stuck in their tails.
Im pretty sure farmers would love not to dock lambs tails as they are more natural with tails... but sheep are also bread to produce an awful lot more fleece than is natural in a lot of cases. Its must cost the farmers a small fortune to be buying the bands and the things (why cant i come up with the name for them?) for putting the bands on, not to mention the labour costs and the time it takes etc...
There are a lot of rules about ringing lambs anyway, i think it used to be within 11 days of birth but i believe it went down to within 3 days of birth a while back.
Was worse having to use rings to castrate the male lambs but so much more humane than an operation within 3 days of being born!
There are lots of pros and cons that I am sure even a farmer would agree, unfortunately in most cases it leans heavily in the way of pros for tail docking, especially in lower and damper areas of this country where they are a lot more flies. I have seen a lot of sheep like the Wensledales in Yorkshire and the grey Herdswicks in the Lake District that have got their full tails as they are legging it accross roads and hills like they have a death wish lol.
I don't like the idea of an animal having its tail removed for no reason so i disagree with tail docking unless it genuinely causes problems in working dogs or for health reasons. My mums German Pointer had her tail docked after she broke her tail for the third time just because she wagged her tail so furiously!
But with sheep... its necessary, as is castration. Sheep farmers are doing really badly at he moment as it is without the added complication of flystrike and tangled tails and uncastrated males.
It even made my eyes water having to ring the young male lambs a day or two after birth! Not that the lambs could care less, the only thing the objected to was being handled in the first place. It only took a few seconds to tip the lamb up and use the scissor type things to stretch a band over and release it in the right place. Same with the tail, i think it had to be 3 or 4 vertebrae down the tail (been 7 years since i did it so forgive me th exact details! But im just implying that there are rules as to how its done). Of all the people in my year, a real few could actually ring the sheep and even less put eartags on them!
Eartagging seemed far more painful to be honest but no more so than it is for humans, so long as you are quick and accurate... I was tagging alpacas a lot of times a year with 250 odd babies born, some needing retagging if tags broke and all needing their adult tags once they are weaned at 6-8 months.
And microchipping, thats got to be painful... you seen the size of needles used?! They are 3-4mm accross to fit the chip inside it and you have to slip that under the skin, press the plunger to inject the chip and massage it to stop the chip coming back out the hole. On alpacas this was done at the top on back of their heads.
In other words, there are lots of procedures done on farms that initially cause the animals a little discomfort but its all regulated and done in their best interests and only done if necessary. There are far more horrendous thing out there to worry about than tail docking etc.
its nice to have an intelligent conversation sometimes As for lamb tail docking, its much kinder to do it to lambs than adult sheep! As lambs they are less likely to get flystrike... but as sheep, it becomes a much bigger problem! I mean... when i was studying farm work at an agricultural college, we were forever dagging the sheep. In other words... giving them a brazilian
but there were only a couple of hundred sheep, not the thousands other farmers have and not up on mountain sides like a lot of farmers sheep are!Imagine having to shave a sheeps tail and back end several times a year when you have thousands of sheep! Females especially, think of the gunk that ends up in their tails after giving birth! God forbid they get diarrhoea or lumps of muck or brambles stuck in their tails.
Im pretty sure farmers would love not to dock lambs tails as they are more natural with tails... but sheep are also bread to produce an awful lot more fleece than is natural in a lot of cases. Its must cost the farmers a small fortune to be buying the bands and the things (why cant i come up with the name for them?) for putting the bands on, not to mention the labour costs and the time it takes etc...
There are a lot of rules about ringing lambs anyway, i think it used to be within 11 days of birth but i believe it went down to within 3 days of birth a while back.
Was worse having to use rings to castrate the male lambs but so much more humane than an operation within 3 days of being born!
There are lots of pros and cons that I am sure even a farmer would agree, unfortunately in most cases it leans heavily in the way of pros for tail docking, especially in lower and damper areas of this country where they are a lot more flies. I have seen a lot of sheep like the Wensledales in Yorkshire and the grey Herdswicks in the Lake District that have got their full tails as they are legging it accross roads and hills like they have a death wish lol.
I don't like the idea of an animal having its tail removed for no reason so i disagree with tail docking unless it genuinely causes problems in working dogs or for health reasons. My mums German Pointer had her tail docked after she broke her tail for the third time just because she wagged her tail so furiously!
But with sheep... its necessary, as is castration. Sheep farmers are doing really badly at he moment as it is without the added complication of flystrike and tangled tails and uncastrated males.
It even made my eyes water having to ring the young male lambs a day or two after birth! Not that the lambs could care less, the only thing the objected to was being handled in the first place. It only took a few seconds to tip the lamb up and use the scissor type things to stretch a band over and release it in the right place. Same with the tail, i think it had to be 3 or 4 vertebrae down the tail (been 7 years since i did it so forgive me th exact details! But im just implying that there are rules as to how its done). Of all the people in my year, a real few could actually ring the sheep and even less put eartags on them!
Eartagging seemed far more painful to be honest but no more so than it is for humans, so long as you are quick and accurate... I was tagging alpacas a lot of times a year with 250 odd babies born, some needing retagging if tags broke and all needing their adult tags once they are weaned at 6-8 months.
And microchipping, thats got to be painful... you seen the size of needles used?! They are 3-4mm accross to fit the chip inside it and you have to slip that under the skin, press the plunger to inject the chip and massage it to stop the chip coming back out the hole. On alpacas this was done at the top on back of their heads.
In other words, there are lots of procedures done on farms that initially cause the animals a little discomfort but its all regulated and done in their best interests and only done if necessary. There are far more horrendous thing out there to worry about than tail docking etc.
hensonc4098
Fish Herder
I understand that you keep up to date on these sorts of things, however DEFRA especially is very "idealistic" about it's ideas and views. As a veterinary student, I have to study said documentation, as well as work on farms for extended periods of time.
Yes, the medication is available, but is less effective and far more expensive than a box of several hundred antiseptic docking rings and the castrator tool to stretch them. Medication like that is far too expensive for farmers to consider for flocks of several hundred (or even several thousand) sheep. Add to this the fact that the medication needs to be given regularly through the summer months to maintain the protection, opposed to 1 minute as a day old lamb and done for life.
Agreed. I've seen some.
BlueDragon
Fish Crazy
I dont think you are ignorant
As for lamb tail docking, its much kinder to do it to lambs than adult sheep! As lambs they are less likely to get flystrike... but as sheep, it becomes a much bigger problem! I mean... when i was studying farm work at an agricultural college, we were forever dagging the sheep. In other words... giving them a brazilian
Im pretty sure farmers would love not to dock lambs tails as they are more natural with tails...
There are a lot of rules about ringing lambs anyway, i think it used to be within 11 days of birth but i believe it went down to within 3 days of birth a while back.
Was worse having to use rings to castrate the male lambs but so much more humane than an operation within 3 days of being born!
But with sheep... its necessary, as is castration. Sheep farmers are doing really badly at he moment as it is without the added complication of flystrike and tangled tails and uncastrated males.
It even made my eyes water having to ring the young male lambs a day or two after birth! Not that the lambs could care less, the only thing the objected to was being handled in the first place. It only took a few seconds to tip the lamb up and use the scissor type things to stretch a band over and release it in the right place.
And microchipping, thats got to be painful... you seen the size of needles used?! They are 3-4mm accross to fit the chip inside it and you have to slip that under the skin, press the plunger to inject the chip and massage it to stop the chip coming back out the hole.
In other words, there are lots of procedures done on farms that initially cause the animals a little discomfort but its all regulated and done in their best interests and only done if necessary. There are far more horrendous thing out there to worry about than tail docking etc.
Thank you MBOU : )
I agree with most of what you say and can see where your coming from. I agree that if taildocking must be done then better to get over and done with with Lambs rather than Sheep.
I did know a Farmer who gave his Yews brazilians! He couldn't face to dock their tails so that was his alternitive. But he only had maybe a hundred Sheep so it was a long day but not impossable for him and his sons to get done. I can see where it might become a problem with a few hundred more to do as well : /
Yeah, I know most farmers would like not to have to hurt their Sheep in any way. At the end of the day they're still going to go off to the abbie (a 'nice' word that I've heard a few people use) but that doesn't mean they don't care about their Animals before hand.
As far as I'm aware tail docking, and castration, have to both be done before the Lambs are a week old. It used to be after a week, but apparently it seems less stressful to them if it's done earlier. But the rules state that it can't be done before a day old because they need a time to bond with their mother so she doesn't reject them afterwards. I think that's still the case.
I don't agree that ringing males is more humaine though. I'm sure if they had a voice they'd want anesthetic and the snip as a pose to no anesthetic and a band put on them. And the stories I've heard and read about about how they scream in pain... I'm sure a numbed up quick snip would be a much better option. And then of course it's still legal to use clamps too... I'm female and I still can't imagine the pain that must cause, crushing them like that. But no one I've known has been willing to use clamps, so I just hope it's not a popular way of going about it.
I do agree with microchipping. That's why when I got my Holly (pusscat) from a not-so-nice person who was sick of her I asked my vet to only chip her while she was under getting spayed. I made sure they weren't going to chip her when she was awake 'cause I didn't want her to feel a thing like that. But I have an almost ridiculous fear of needles so maybe that has something to do with it!
I fully understand the needs of the things that are done on farms. But I still don't agree with how they're carried out. If these same things were done on peoples pets there would be hell on. But 'cause no one sees what goes on on Farms then it seems that it can be got away with. And I don't agree with that. And I don't agree that farmers should have to be doing things they hate doing just 'cause they have no other choice money-wise.
hensonc4098: I keep up to date through a lot of places. They were just two examples. It's good to get differeing view points on things like this, I know that. I don't tend to read much through activist sites etc 'cause unfortunatly I find they tend to exagerate things. It's a shame they feel they need to do that as it taints their aim. I'm not an activist though.
And yes, I've seen some pretty horrific things too. So I do agree there's worse out there.
There are alternitives out there. Humaine and painless ones. The biggest problem is that the farmers can't afford them. But this is going back to the original topic of free range. The problem is that people just arn't willing to fork out for their meat. And in return the Animals have to suffer. If people were more willing to pay just that little bit extra then I'm sure things would soon be able to improove for all concerned. And bringing this thread back onto that topic I do think that what Tesco are doing with the sausages, chicken kievs and the veal is deffinatly the way to go. It's a good start and maybe it'll make people more aware too. 'cause another problem is that a lot of things are kept from people... and that is not only unfair, it's what's caused some of this mess in the first place. That's what I beleive anyway.
Here's hoping we see a difference for the good!
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