Fishless cycling... totally confused 8n

[Rocky998]

@twotankadmin suggested NOT doing in fish but doing just plants and keeping the fish in a holding tank. (Actually offered to send some plants!) See their whole post above. So a little confused.

Yeah. Absolutely. Do the plants! They will help the cycle tremendously! Make sure their either hardy or they can suck up the ammonia quick.

 

[metropolis93fan]

OK- here is how to do this. You need not to do a fish in cycle, At best the fish wont die and at worst it will.

Using a cycled tank is not a requirement ti keep fish, but it makes it safer and is a whole less lot work. So what does this mean here? You can park your betta while you cyle its tank if you want. Here is how to do this.

You do not need a tank, you just need a safe container. A Rubbermaid costainer that holds a few gallons will be fine. You will need a heater and an air pump and air stone. You will set this up like a tank but you will not need a cycle. Instead you will change the water every day or two. That will be determined by what size container you use and by testing for ammonia. The bigger the container the better in this regard, to a point. 5 gal. would be fine.

Test after 24 hours. If ammonia is .25 ppm or less, you can go another day. Do not feed the fish daily, in fact every 3rd day is fine. Healthy fish which are not very young can do fine without food for some time. The smaller the contain you get to "park' the betta, the more frequently you will need to change water. You and these water changes are the filter for an uncycled tank for the duration.

You need to vacuum any waste from the container at least once a day- remove fish poop and any uneaten food after you feed. If you can put in a fake plant or two so the fish can hide, this will help but if not it isn't a huge deal. A couple of live floating plants would help but are not a must. The water changes will keep the fish safe, the heater and air will keep the water warm and clean. It is very important to do the water changes, without them you will be back where you are now.

Next, the nitrifying bacteria are live and they reproduce by dividing. They do not form spores. Stability is a bottle of spores. As a rule the last option for a tank is to add some chemical/cure when it isn't really needed and wont help. It may hurt. You did right getting the Tetra SafeStart, the problem is the surgery in the middle made what you were doing difficult to succeed. When we add live bacteria to a tank, it needs ammonia. When this is a bottled product like Safe Start, it takes the bacteria day or so to wake up and to go to work (they are dormant in the bottle). One of the first things they do is to attach to hard surfaces and create a bio-film in which they and other bacteria live and work in concert.

You needed to be actively helping the bacteria when you had to stop for surgery. So what happened to them is hard to say. But a ton of them should have removed all ammonia from 1 ppm pretty fast, 2 days max. After than they needed to be fed ammonia. Normally established bacteria go dormant when what they need is suddenly gone. But it takes a while for them to settle in and ammonia additions are needed every few days or sooner. Since you could not do them..........

If money is a problem that makes your options more limited. To add the proper bacteria or to get live plants costs money. If you have more of the tetra product unused this would help here. It would make it possible to do this all very differently. the same applies if you can get a bunch of live plants. But I get the impression that you may not be able to spend much more at this time.

The above solution using a container to park the fish will give you time to insure its permanent home is well cycled before the goes back into the tank.

As noted above the cycle will slow the lower the pH. At 8.0 it appears to stop. It does not, it just works way slower and it takes longer to oestablish the cycle. There are few cheap options for changing ones water parameters the bigger the tank involved is.

I have tons of excess live plants and am happy to mail you some at no cost to you, But They likely would npt get there for some number of days as the USPO is not as fast as it used to be. I have anubias, java fern and long leaf hygrophila. This last one is a fast growing stem plant you can float. I can afford to cover the shipping cost for few plants as well, so do not worry about that part. I could send some crypts but they need to be growing in substrate.

If you want the plants I will need a name and shipping addy. I would send them Priority mail in a fixed price box. I am in NY not far outside NYC. Unless the temps are really high they should be fine. It doesn't make sense to send them in an insulated box as it would be cheaper to send money for you to buy them locally.

I did add the ammonia before adding the bacteria by about 16 hours. The ammonia was about half (.5 ppm) when I got back about a week later. No nitrites. Last night the nitrites finally started increasing. I'll take the plants. I don't know how well I can do the frequent water changes in his Tupperware container though. I just cannot lift. I'll know Fri what my limitations are at post-op.
I'd love to take you up on the plants but don't know if I can do things the way you want.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

You can do things any way you want. I am not making rules only suggestions.

After my heart surgery I was not allowed to lift more than a 5 pounds and then 10. I adjusted what I did. When I used a 21 gal bucket for media rinsing, I put 1/2 of it into another bucket and then made two trips to dump it.

If you want the plants and can provide an addy for shipping I will send them. I only basically do four types, anubiasm java fern. red and green crypts and the long leaf hygro. Do not feel obligated to take them, it is an offer i can easily live with being turned down.

In the past 10 years I have undergone tripple bypass, knee, cataract and hip replacement surgeries. I refused to let them give up most of what I do. But sooner or later our mortality catches up with us. Its is either that or else water has gained a lot of weight over the last 22+ years.

Good luck with the surgery.

 

[metropolis93fan]

You can do things any way you want. I am not making rules only suggestions.

After my heart surgery I was not allowed to lift more than a 5 pounds and then 10. I adjusted what I did. When I used a 21 gal bucket for media rinsing, I put 1/2 of it into another bucket and then made two trips to dump it.

If you want the plants and can provide an addy for shipping I will send them. I only basically do four types, anubiasm java fern. red and green crypts and the long leaf hygro. Do not feel obligated to take them, it is an offer i can easily live with being turned down.

In the past 10 years I have undergone tripple bypass, knee, cataract and hip replacement surgeries. I refused to let them give up most of what I do. But sooner or later our mortality catches up with us. Its is either that or else water has gained a lot of weight over the last 22+ years.

Good luck with the surgery.

I forgot to say I have about 1/3 of a 100 ml bottle of Tetra SafeStart left. Honestly I'm still trying to decide between fish-in and not.

I DO know about separating a task into smaller ones. For strength issues that helps a lot. But just the movement required to do a tank change... bending, lifting, (anything... even bending to pick up something a tissue off the floor, pushing myself out of my chair... hurts. And frankly, I don't wish to undo what's been done (hysterectomy that took 6 hours). Honestly, I'm considering putting him up for adoption. Let the tank cycle and get a new fish. But there's Mom who while giving him to me is attached to him and likes to know she can still see him. This is just messed up situation. I wish I'd put my foot down (and incurred motherly wrath albeit mild) and made her either get a bigger tank or none at all. But that's many months of wishing for the impossible since the doing was done in January. On her birthday. (Partly why I had trouble saying no). But I think I'm going to try.

In your opinion, how much would your plants help (speed and just chemically) in BOTH fish in and out tanks?

I just checked specs again. Ammonia is down to .25 but no nitrite. I'm down to two test tubes as I forgot to empty 2 and they are stained. Could only do those 2 tests. Will do other 2 when I get up or after dinner which could be any minute. I leave Friday late morning coming home mid morning on Monday. Should I leave things alone and start again Monday? Add more Ammonia either way maybe? Want ALL input possible.
@Rocky998 @Valkyrie_Lips

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Plants would not arrive in time. I am unwilling to pay overnight which would be silly and cost a more than the plants are worth.

But live plants, if you have a light on a timer over the tank, are your best bet along with adding some more bacteria. The plants will eat ammonia and will not make nitrite. There are other possibilities which all cost money and likely are not available locally. Poly-Filter is one. It absorbs ammonia and other things. The small size is more than you may want to spend. I do not know this company but the price is good. I just order 6 using their their bulk prising offer. Too good to pass up. I use a piece of the filter manterial in my fish bags when I shop fish.
https://premiumaquatics.com/products/poly-filter-pad-single-4-8.html

 

[connorlindeman]

I am in NY not far outside NYC.

We live in the same area!

 

[Rocky998]

I forgot to say I have about 1/3 of a 100 ml bottle of Tetra SafeStart left. Honestly I'm still trying to decide between fish-in and not.

I DO know about separating a task into smaller ones. For strength issues that helps a lot. But just the movement required to do a tank change... bending, lifting, (anything... even bending to pick up something a tissue off the floor, pushing myself out of my chair... hurts. And frankly, I don't wish to undo what's been done (hysterectomy that took 6 hours). Honestly, I'm considering putting him up for adoption. Let the tank cycle and get a new fish. But there's Mom who while giving him to me is attached to him and likes to know she can still see him. This is just messed up situation. I wish I'd put my foot down (and incurred motherly wrath albeit mild) and made her either get a bigger tank or none at all. But that's many months of wishing for the impossible since the doing was done in January. On her birthday. (Partly why I had trouble saying no). But I think I'm going to try.

In your opinion, how much would your plants help (speed and just chemically) in BOTH fish in and out tanks?

I just checked specs again. Ammonia is down to .25 but no nitrite. I'm down to two test tubes as I forgot to empty 2 and they are stained. Could only do those 2 tests. Will do other 2 when I get up or after dinner which could be any minute. I leave Friday late morning coming home mid morning on Monday. Should I leave things alone and start again Monday? Add more Ammonia either way maybe? Want ALL input possible.
@Rocky998 @Valkyrie_Lips

You need to sir down and have a nice conversation with your mom. While you need to respect her, she is not the one doing all the work for the tank. Talk to her and say that it hurts to do the water changes and that if you want the betta you have to make sure it receives PROPER care. If she refuses to give the betta the care it needs then you may need to rehome it.
But if you yourself, not your mom, feel like you can keep up with the work then go right ahead and finish the cycle to keep the betta.
If you are unable to plants that's fine, it was just a way to keep the cycle going faster.
What are your nitrAtes reading?

 

[metropolis93fan]

Plants would not arrive in time. I am unwilling to pay overnight which would be silly and cost a more than the plants are worth.

But live plants, if you have a light on a timer over the tank, are your best bet along with adding some more bacteria. The plants will eat ammonia and will not make nitrite. There are other possibilities which all cost money and likely are not available locally. Poly-Filter is one. It absorbs ammonia and other things. The small size is more than you may want to spend. I do not know this company but the price is good. I just order 6 using their their bulk prising offer. Too good to pass up. I use a piece of the filter manterial in my fish bags when I shop fish.
https://premiumaquatics.com/products/poly-filter-pad-single-4-8.html

I might be able to keep them alive. I'll be at my parents place so they could be shipped there. That was my intention when I said I'd take them. What are other brands? And I'll buy one more thing of bacteria. I have to watch my budget. (Short story between asterisks.. feel free to skip.. but it's mostly animals)
*Owe my parents for a medication because my dog needed sudden vet care. So I have to be careful but I actually had her rescue agree to pay for her teeth (bad condition) which I was pathetically slowly saving for but it got so she can only eat on one side which I didn't know. Went in for allergies and found out she needed $500-1500 surgery. (Way more than last estimate a year ago.) I created a go fund me for her and asked her rescue if they'd post it on their social media and they said no because they were going to foot the whole bill. She has her procedure on the 27th. So one less bill and a healthy dog to boot!*

So while I REALLY have to be careful I have one less thing to save for. If there is another brand of the pad let me know. I can maybe get them together at the store, no shipping. Also should I put in the rest of the ammonia TONIGHT or should I wait? If I get one more bottle I don't have to save it I guess. I'll never afford enough plants. The ammonia is going down but nitrites and nitrates not going up. What's happening?

 

[Rocky998]

I might be able to keep them alive. I'll be at my parents place so they could be shipped there. That was my intention when I said I'd take them. What are other brands? And I'll buy one more thing of bacteria. I have to watch my budget. (Short story between asterisks.. feel free to skip.. but it's mostly animals)
*Owe my parents for a medication because my dog needed sudden vet care. So I have to be careful but I actually had her rescue agree to pay for her teeth (bad condition) which I was pathetically slowly saving for but it got so she can only eat on one side which I didn't know. Went in for allergies and found out she needed $500-1500 surgery. (Way more than last estimate a year ago.) I created a go fund me for her and asked her rescue if they'd post it on their social media and they said no because they were going to foot the whole bill. She has her procedure on the 27th. So one less bill and a healthy dog to boot!*

So while I REALLY have to be careful I have one less thing to save for. If there is another brand of the pad let me know. I can maybe get them together at the store, no shipping. Also should I put in the rest of the ammonia TONIGHT or should I wait? If I get one more bottle I don't have to save it I guess. I'll never afford enough plants. The ammonia is going down but nitrites and nitrates not going up. What's happening?

Hmm this is kinda weird with the nitrites and nitrates not going up at all... But I don't think you need more bacteria. You can if you want but I feel it is uneeded. Especially with you on a budget

 

[metropolis93fan]

You need to sir down and have a nice conversation with your mom. While you need to respect her, she is not the one doing all the work for the tank. Talk to her and say that it hurts to do the water changes and that if you want the betta you have to make sure it receives PROPER care. If she refuses to give the betta the care it needs then you may need to rehome it.
But if you yourself, not your mom, feel like you can keep up with the work then go right ahead and finish the cycle to keep the betta.
If you are unable to plants that's fine, it was just a way to keep the cycle going faster.
What are your nitrAtes reading?

I just had the talk. She'd rather put the thing down because you don't know what kind of person would get him. Don't want to let him suffer (HELLO?!)
Anyway. Nitrates are about .25 ppm. It's not exactly light, bright yellow for 0 but not really orange-y yellow either for .5 ppm.

 

[metropolis93fan]

Hmm this is kinda weird with the nitrites and nitrates not going up at all... But I don't think you need more bacteria. You can if you want but I feel it is uneeded. Especially with you on a budget

I thought it really weird too! What would you do in my shoes with these weird levels.? Nitrates aren't light bright yellow of 0 but not orange-y really. Just dark yellow, not the "goldenrod " of 5.0. Maybe 2.5? Test kit is brand new. The pH is somewhere between 7.8 and 8.0.

 

[Rocky998]

I thought it really weird too! What would you do in my shoes with these weird levels.? Nitrates aren't light bright yellow of 0 but not orange-y really. Just dark yellow, not the "goldenrod " of 5.0. Maybe 2.5? Test kit is brand new. The pH is somewhere between 7.8 and 8.0.

Hmm... Maybe give it a few more days... Dose the tank with a full dose of ammonia (1ppm). Then follow all the instructions on the cycling page AFTER the first dose.
But don't pay attention to nitrites if they stay 0. Still test them though!
If you get it to where ammonia goes ro 0 in 24hrs or less you can put the betta in after doing the large water change.

I just had the talk. She'd rather put the thing down because you don't know what kind of person would get him. Don't want to let him suffer (HELLO?!)
Anyway. Nitrates are about .25 ppm. It's not exactly light, bright yellow for 0 but not really orange-y yellow either for .5 ppm.

What!? Put it down!? If she doesn't want it then let someone else have it!! DO NOT KILL. Just rehome... I don't know why someone would do that.

 

[metropolis93fan]

Hmm... Maybe give it a few more days... Dose the tank with a full dose of ammonia (1ppm). Then follow all the instructions on the cycling page AFTER the first dose.
But don't pay attention to nitrites if they stay 0. Still test them though!
If you get it to where ammonia goes ro 0 in 24hrs or less you can put the betta in after doing the large water change.

What!? Put it down!? If she doesn't want it then let someone else have it!! DO NOT KILL. Just rehome... I don't know why someone would do that.

Got it on cycle. Might start Monday since I leave Fri morning for 2 appointments (1 Friday and 1 Monday morning) Hopefully that works!
And DO NOT WORRY! I'm not putting this gorgeous boy down. I'll do as much as I physically can without setting my healing back (and that my doctor allows). I just wish she could have made this decision to give me the fish about a month earlier. We'd be cycled almost for sure BEFORE the surgery.

 

[Rocky998]

Got it on cycle. Might start Monday since I leave Fri morning for 2 appointments (1 Friday and 1 Monday morning) Hopefully that works!
And DO NOT WORRY! I'm not putting this gorgeous boy down. I'll do as much as I physically can without setting my healing back (and that my doctor allows). I just wish she could have made this decision to give me the fish about a month earlier. We'd be cycled almost for sure BEFORE the surgery.

Sounds good!

And I really hope you get better soon. It sounds painful and exhausting.
Are you able to take pain killers like advil or Tylenol?

 

[metropolis93fan]

Thanks. I'm moving in the right direction. The CONSTANT pain is mostly gone. But moving at all still does. Depending on what.. a lot. I actually am still taking VERY low doses of Norco every 6 hours. Chose not to wake up at 3 this morning and when I got up at 9:30 was in a LOT of pain. Doctor figured I'd be on them at least this week. Asking for something way less strong but more than otc stuff on Fri.