Fishless Cycle ... Quick Advice Needed

Yes it can (I'll leave you to research how - the clue is in the amine). And the main AOB is nitrosospira not nitrosomonas, although you'll find both in the bacteria-in-a-bottle type products.

Oops, I am completely confused now. Not sure what you mean by AOB, but isn't Nitrospira the nitrite-oxidizing bacteria, not the ammonia one.

NitroSOspira not nitrospira. AOB, the correct scientific shorthand for the Ammonia Oxidising Bacteria, i.e. that group of bacteria which perform nitritation. Then there's NOB, you can guess what that is. No more help now, do some work.
 
Are you sure that Nitrosomonas and Nitrospira are not the ammonia and nitrite bacteria respectively that thrives in a fresh water tanks, not niroSospira?
 
Actually it makes sense, because the Tetra Safe start(new version of Bio Spira) supposedly has all three nitrosomonas, nitroSospira and nitrospira. From what I know, the nitrosomonas is the AOB, nitrospira is NOB, so I am not sure what purpose nitroSospira does, but according to you it is also an NH3/ammonia converting bacteria?
 
I am not sure what purpose nitroSospira does, but according to you it is also an NH3/ammonia converting bacteria?

It's the main AOB, not nitrosomonas. Their Ks are very different. Something which I'm going to have to enlighten Eaglesaquarium about too in another thread, if I can be bothered to. And no, I'm not telling you what Ks is, research. :hey:
 
There is a science section on the forum if you want to get into it in depth and take your knowledge to a new level, perfect place to wave it around there ;) Most people would probably benefit from a 10 minute browse, i've learnt a lot there myself :)
 
Cheers. I'll do. But can this cylic amin be used by nitrosomonas to convert it to nitrite, even though harder as you said?
Or will you leave me to find this out for myself

Yes it can (I'll leave you to research how - the clue is in the amine). And the main AOB is nitrosospira not nitrosomonas, although you'll find both in the bacteria-in-a-bottle type products.


Just trying to answer my own question here :lol:
OK, so Prime for example claims to convert ammonia to cyclic amines.
I am a bit late with the research, but couldn't find too much on the cyclic amines, besides they are ammonia on which the hydrogen ions are replaced by organic compounds. Doesn't this mean then, that these cyclic amines are organic stuff that is similar to waste break down in the gravel. So my question is, if they are organic, then how is it possible for nitrosospira/ nitrosomonas to be actually be able to convert them to nitrites directly?
To me it looks like other type of anaerobic/heterotrophic bacteria converts the cyclic amines back to ammonia and carbon dioxide in a similar way to the waste break down in the gravel. And then nitrosomonas/nitrosospira converts the ammonia back to nitrites?
 
It's the main AOB, not nitrosomonas. Their Ks are very different. Something which I'm going to have to enlighten Eaglesaquarium about too in another thread, if I can be bothered to. And no, I'm not telling you what Ks is, research.

I feel like I've guessed the numbers of the lottery or something but is Ks "saturation constant for growth" ? :S
 
You're half way there, literally! :D

Ks is the half-saturation constant, usually found in the monod equation for specific growth rate.
 
OK, so Prime for example claims to convert ammonia to cyclic amines.

No. I gave cyclic amines as just one example of many different molecules that ammonia detoxifiers convert ammonia to. I don't think Prime does but can't recall off the top of my head what it does convert to.
 
half way there :lol:
Thanks. I did read somewhere though that Prime converts ammonia to cyclic amines. I'll try to find that again.
 
There is a lot of banter going on that is unnecessary in this thread.

I just want to clear up a few things...

First this is the first comment from Cezza that got someone out of sorts. But, there is nothing to be upset about.


tbh, you don't really need to do the 24-48 hour waiting thing before adding ammonia. Yes, it'll make sure there are no leaks, but if it does leak (unlikely), it makes no difference whether there's ammonia in the water or not.

Cezza clearly states that there is no need to wait 24-48 hours to add AMMONIA. There is no mention of waiting or not waiting to add dechlorinator. In fact, I would NOT wait up to two days to add ammonia during a fishless cycle. If the only goal is to ensure there are no leaks, what is the harm in the ammonia in the tank while checking for those leaks?

Secondly, it really doesnt matter whether the dechlorinator you use will bind ammonia. All it does is convert it to ammonium, which is less toxic for fish but still fully consumable by the bacteria you're trying to breed and won't make a bit of difference to your cycle. Myself and others recommend Prime as it's so much more concentrated than other brands. A little goes a long way and it'll save you alot of money in the long run.

Then there is this discussion about Prime and how it affects the ammonia in the water. First, Prime only temporarily converts the ammonia. It doesn't last forever as cyclic amines aren't all that stable, and since the only times that you would use the Prime during a fishless cycle are for the initial fill-up and the occasional water change if the cycle stalls, then what it the big deal? Secondly, since dechlorinator will be necessary for a LONG time as a fish keeper, mentioning that it is very concentrated and will save someone money in the long run is good information to share.


In addition to that, let us not forget that the ammonia/ammonium conversion happens NATURALLY in the fish tank all the time! As the pH drops, the ammonia becomes ammonium and that's why having slightly higher than trace levels of "ammonia" in a tank with a pH in the 6.0-6.5 range isn't actually a dangerous situation for fish. The bacteria do process that ammonia as well, just not as efficiently. Which brings us to another point, most of the time during a fishless cycle it is recommended to boost the pH to 8.0-8.4, because it promotes the fastest growth rate of the bacteria (as well as boosting the temp to about 30C or 84F). No mention of this has been made, and regardless of whether or not you use Prime or any other dechlorinator that deals with ammonia, the ammonia will convert right back to ammonia at such a high pH, so it is really a moot point.


Now if we could get back to the OP... Quasimodoand, do you need any more help with the fishless cycle?
 

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