Fishless Cycle ... Quick Advice Needed

[the_lock_man]

tbh, you don't really need to do the 24-48 hour waiting thing before adding ammonia. Yes, it'll make sure there are no leaks, but if it does leak (unlikely), it makes no difference whether there's ammonia in the water or not.

Secondly, it really doesnt matter whether the dechlorinator you use will bind ammonia. All it does is convert it to ammonium, which is less toxic for fish but still fully consumable by the bacteria you're trying to breed and won't make a bit of difference to your cycle. Myself and others recommend Prime as it's so much more concentrated than other brands. A little goes a long way and it'll save you alot of money in the long run.

+1 Can't argue with with that!

This is what you said Lock man. So you agree fully with caezza's wrong information. The 24-48hr thing is the trivial part, as you well know, it's the completely wrong statement about the dechlorinator that's important. I notice you said nothing about that. Quick to agree but not so quick to back up your opinions.

I am fully aware of what I said. THe point I was trying to make was that I found the use of "parroting" rather offensive.

I am not a chemistry expert, you clearly are. What molecule is it that the NH3 is bound to?

 

[Tizer]

Whos a pretty boy then?

 

[the_lock_man]

Whos a pretty boy then?

Thank you for that, Mr Constructive. How's the sleep pattern? Matchsticks propping the eyelids open?

 

[Tizer]

Na mate, its all good, 11pm till 5am not bad for a 3 week old

 

[the_lock_man]

Na mate, its all good, 11pm till 5am not bad for a 3 week old

Can't argue with that!

 

[CezzaXV]

I had always been led to believe that it converts it to ammonium which is still fully usable by the bacteria. I know ammonium is less toxic to fish than ammonia, but if the bacteria can't use it, surely it's a bad thing to have hanging around in the tank?

According to the bottle of Prime I have right here in front of me, "Prime converts ammonia into a safe, non-toxic form that is readily removed by the tank's biofilter", suggesting that whatever it's converting into, the bacteria can deal with it. It also claims it can be used during cycling, although no mention is made of fish-in or fishless. It's a moot point though really. It only really matters if you have ammonia in the tap water to begin with.

 

[Prime Ordeal]

Sorry cezza but once again you're almost completely wrong.

What you were led to believe and what actually is are two different things. You, like many others on this type of forum, pick up a tidbit of information and pass it around. The information is repeated so often that eventually everyone believes it to be the truth. Until, that is, someone actually confronts you with the correct information.

I never said that 'whatever' the ammonia is being converted to can't be used by the bacteria, because it can. Only it's harder for them to metabolise so it delays the cycle. Of course Prime can be used to cycle the tank, or any other dechlorinator that binds ammonia for that matter, but only if you want increase the cycle time.

And the point is far from moot. During fishless cycling, which we're discussing here, ammonia is constantly added to the tank, so whether there's any in the tap water or not is irrelevant.

No offence meant cezza but you really don't understand the science here and there's nothing wrong with that, except when you try to pass off your erroneous beliefs in an authoratative way to newcomers (and contradict my correct information in the process ). It just doesn't wash I'm afraid and just detracts from helping the OP.


Oh, I forgot to ask, does your knowledge stretch to the equilibrium relationship between ammonia and ammonium and its dependency (mostly) upon pH and temperature? If it does just have a think for a minute and imagine what would happen if the way these detoxifiers worked was to simply convert ammonia to ammonium. I'm not going to spoon feed you but I'll give you info to help yourself.

 

[Quasimodoand]

WOW... Thanks for all the info ... Never expected such a debate ...

 

[snazy]

I don't know how Prime, and similar products detoxify ammonia(I thought ammonia molecules get converted to ammonium ions, but god knows what other chemical they use to do that ), but if they stated on the bottle that it does slow the cycle of a tank, which it does, it would obviously dicrease the sales on the product.
It's probably good to treat tap water that has ammonia in it, or chloramines, which once in the tank, will break down to chlorine and ammonia, but that's only if you your tap water is treated with ammonia and chloramines.
These products probably just convert the ammonia to ammonium in a certain period of time via some chemicals, and then ammonium is converted back to ammonia slowly, in order for the filter to cope, and at the same time, ammonium could also be reduced naturally by plants and other microorganisms that like ammonium, depending on the tank and age.

Edit: I thought nitrosomonas, the bacteria that converts ammonia to nitrite with the help of oxygen, can't use any other chemical rather than ammonia and oxygen, so I don't even believe in it being able to convert non-toxic ammonium or whatever the dechlorinator converts it to, to nitrite, not even slow. Is that possible and what is the formula for such process?

 

[Prime Ordeal]

I don't know how Prime, and similar products detoxify ammonia(I thought ammonia molecules get converted to ammonium ions, but god knows what other chemical they use to do that ), but if they stated on the bottle that it does slow the cycle of a tank, which it does, it would obviously dicrease the sales on the product.

Exactly, which is why they don't tell you that bit of information

It's probably good to treat tap water that has ammonia in it, or chloramines, which once in the tank, will break down to chlorine and ammonia, but that's only if you your tap water is treated with ammonia and chloramines.
These products probably just convert the ammonia to ammonium in a certain period of time via some chemicals, and then ammonium is converted back to ammonia slowly, in order for the filter to cope, and at the same time, ammonium could also be reduced naturally by plants and other microorganisms that like ammonium, depending on the tank and age.

No. Read my previous posts. The ammonia is bound, that's the key word, i.e. it is incorporated into a different molecule that the bacteria can still process, it is not converted to ammonium.

WOW... Thanks for all the info ... Never expected such a debate ...

Neither did I! Sheesh!

 

[snazy]

OK. Thanks. I did read your previous post. I just couldn't understand know how is ammonia bound and to what molecule, if not ammonium ion?

 

[Prime Ordeal]

It's called a cyclic amine. Now go do your research!

 

[snazy]

Cheers. I'll do. But can this cylic amin be used by nitrosomonas to convert it to nitrite, even though harder as you said?
Or will you leave me to find this out for myself

 

[Prime Ordeal]

Yes it can (I'll leave you to research how - the clue is in the amine). And the main AOB is nitrosospira not nitrosomonas, although you'll find both in the bacteria-in-a-bottle type products.

 

[snazy]

Yes it can (I'll leave you to research how - the clue is in the amine). And the main AOB is nitrosospira not nitrosomonas, although you'll find both in the bacteria-in-a-bottle type products.

Oops, I am completely confused now. Not sure what you mean by AOB, but isn't Nitrospira the nitrite-oxidizing bacteria, not the ammonia one.