Fishless Cycle Log

[monkey_wrench]

Does it really matter if you overdose the ammonia since its the bacterias nutrients anyway?

 

[coldcazzie]

That sounds good but keep an eye on the pH. If it gets below about 6.2 we will need to deal with it.

Yep, am watching it carefully - my tap water is 7.4 so will do a water change once it reaches about 6.6 probably.

Does it really matter if you overdose the ammonia since its the bacterias nutrients anyway?

The problem is that once you get over 8ppm of ammonia a different type of bacteria starts to grow - which means your cycle doesn't move forward.

Day 19 (11.9.09)
10:20am: Ammonia: 2-4ppm. Nitrite: 0.5ppm. Nitrate: 5ppm. pH: 7.2.

Same as yesterday, but the nitrite is getting progressively more vivid each day.

 

[waterdrop]

Does it really matter if you overdose the ammonia since its the bacterias nutrients anyway?

Coldcazzie has got it right. As the ammonia dosing concentration passes 7ppm to 8ppm and higher, a different species of autotroph, which has been there competing with the Nitrosomonas spp. all along, is encouraged to outcompete them and can, with enough days of "too-high" ammonia concentration, become the dominant percentage of biofilm/colony coverage on the media surfaces.

If I'm right from my reading, its actually a fairly confusing set of symptoms one could see. The "wrong" species, still being an ammonia oxidizer, is still going to process ammonia in to nitrite(NO2) just as the "correct" species does. This means that you, as the fishless cycler, is still going to think things are going great because ammoia is dropping in level. The problem comes later, once you drop your dosing level back to 5ppm or lower (this of course will happen whether you like it or not once you have a fish population because 5ppm is calculated on purpose to be slightly -higher- than even a very heavy fish stocking would produce!) Once the ammonia concentration gets lower, the "wrong" species will die and leave their dead cells and biofilms stuck all over the media surface, blocking surface access to the "correct" species. These leftover biofilms have to break down and wash away before re-colonization can begin to occur by the Nitrosomonas. So of course the symptom you see is a large drop in the ammonia processing ability of your filter followed by a period when it still won't process, finally followed by a slow return to correct ammonia processing as if you were starting all over again on the fishless cycle.

Hope that wasn't too hard to follow. For the few who've done research on these autotrophs, its arduous work because they can only be definitively identified with delicate and complicated RNA analyses I believe and basically the only nearby field that provides funding for this sort of expensive research is the waste water treatment plant area of interest.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[monkey_wrench]

Does it really matter if you overdose the ammonia since its the bacterias nutrients anyway?

Coldcazzie has got it right. As the ammonia dosing concentration passes 7ppm to 8ppm and higher, a different species of autotroph, which has been there competing with the Nitrosomonas spp. all along, is encouraged to outcompete them and can, with enough days of "too-high" ammonia concentration, become the dominant percentage of biofilm/colony coverage on the media surfaces.

If I'm right from my reading, its actually a fairly confusing set of symptoms one could see. The "wrong" species, still being an ammonia oxidizer, is still going to process ammonia in to nitrite(NO2) just as the "correct" species does. This means that you, as the fishless cycler, is still going to think things are going great because ammoia is dropping in level. The problem comes later, once you drop your dosing level back to 5ppm or lower (this of course will happen whether you like it or not once you have a fish population because 5ppm is calculated on purpose to be slightly -higher- than even a very heavy fish stocking would produce!) Once the ammonia concentration gets lower, the "wrong" species will die and leave their dead cells and biofilms stuck all over the media surface, blocking surface access to the "correct" species. These leftover biofilms have to break down and wash away before re-colonization can begin to occur by the Nitrosomonas. So of course the symptom you see is a large drop in the ammonia processing ability of your filter followed by a period when it still won't process, finally followed by a slow return to correct ammonia processing as if you were starting all over again on the fishless cycle.

Hope that wasn't too hard to follow. For the few who've done research on these autotrophs, its arduous work because they can only be definitively identified with delicate and complicated RNA analyses I believe and basically the only nearby field that provides funding for this sort of expensive research is the waste water treatment plant area of interest.

~~waterdrop~~

crap..i wish someone would of told me that before

 

[waterdrop]

...have NO earthly idea why I find this stuff, the papers in Applied Microbiology, the bacteriology textbooks, the planted tank conferences, so interesting, lol. Heck, my poor fish didn't even get fed this morning! ...WD

 

[coldcazzie]

lol, it's ok I find it really interesting as well. Unfortunately all my researching energy is currently centred around child development so having someone else come along and provide the info and maybe a reference or two for when I have a spare 10 mins is really nice!

Day 20 (12.9.09)
6.55pm: Ammonia: 2-4ppm. Nitrite: 2ppm. Nitrate: 6-7ppm. pH: 7.0.

Will update todays after I have done wkly maintainance on other tank. Going to try using the hose for the first time today - assuming I can convince the connector to fit into the end of my gravel siphon!

Day 21 (13.9.09)
2pm: Ammonia: 2-4ppm. Nitrite: 2-5ppm. Nitrate: 7-8ppm. pH: 7.0.

Am now wondering, if the nitrite is being produced, why is the ammonia reading still the same? Surely it should have dropped significantly by now. Maybe I didn't dilute the water enough with all those water changes...?

 

[coldcazzie]

Day 22 (14.9.09)
Ammonia: 2ppm. Nitrite: 2-5ppm. Nitrate: 7-8. pH: 6.8.

Day 23 (15.9.09)
Ammonia: 1-2ppm. Nitrite: 2-5ppm. Nitrate: 5ppm. pH: 6.4.

Going to do a water change tomorrow to bring pH back up - how large should I do? 70% ok, or more or less? Once done I will (try to!) dose back up to 4-5ppm Ammonia.

 

[waterdrop]

I have always felt very strongly that there is no "meaning" to doing "percentage" water changes during a fishless cycle (other than some sort of convenience for the human.) "Percentage" changes only exist to reduce various perceived shocks to fish and there are no fish in there. So during fishless, you might as well get maximal benefit from your overall effort and change right down to the gravel! That will give you the most new minerals to help get your KH and pH back up into better "bacterial growing soup" range.

Now, having said that, I have to admit that what I personally often do out of laziness, is to just remove water down to the last possible stopping point before the external filter intake would start to suck air. I then stop, so that I can just leave my external cannister running (the spraybar is making a nice waterfall through the air all during these type changes and I rather like the music and I don't think this brief period of less supply pressure is going to be bad on my impeller, so its what I do.

Or you could even do two 70% changes directly in a row to suck even more nitrites out of the gravel, but that's up to you. Always remember to recharge your ammonia of course and recharge your baking soda if you're using that to doctor your pH up to the optimal 8.0 to 8.4 range for the bacterial soup.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[coldcazzie]

Well there's nothing in the tank other than filter, heater and 3 silk plants - no gravel or sand or anything, so technically I could unplug the filter (which is homemade air powered) and remove it with the water still in it, and then essentially tip all the water straight down the drain?

I see what you mean about percentage changes only being for the benefit of fish - I hadn't really thought of it like that - it would also make it much easier to redose up to 4-5ppm Ammonia because there's no risk of residual ammonia in the leftover water adding to the overall reading. After the fiasco at the beginning where I overdosed I don't really want to do that again!

I mostly thought 70% as that is 2 buckets worth of water. The tank is on my kitchen worktop, and about a foot too far away from the sink to use the siphon straight into the sink! although I guess I could cut a length of hose that would reach the distance, which would also make refilling much easier...

I didn't put anything in the water to raise pH - it seemed to raise itself! Although my test kit only goes up to 7.6 so maybe it's just been sitting at 7.6...either way it's still higher than tap water at 7.4.

 

[waterdrop]

Yeah, when the water comes out of the tap the CO2 sees less pressure, gasses out, and since CO2 lowers the pH, the water pH now goes up a little! In addition, the ammonia itself will raise the pH since it is a base.

The sooner you cut yourself a longer siphon hose, the more time you'll receive the benefit! Go for it!

WD

 

[coldcazzie]

the ammonia itself will raise the pH since it is a base.

yeh that's what I thought! will do some surgery on my hose tonight - my other length is too long really anyway so will have to try remember to buy more hose connectors!

 

[coldcazzie]

Day 24 (16.9.09)
100% water change. 1.25ml Ammonia added.

Day 25 (17.9.09)
Ammonia: 1ppm. pH: 7.6+.

pH problem sorted left it til today to do the tests as filter doesn't seem to mix the water in less than 24 hours. Would have thought it would be higher, unless filter is now processing ammonia that fast... probably should have tested nitrite too. tis exactly the issue I had at the beginning - the dose should have taken it to 4-5ppm, but only registered 1ppm so I put more ammonia in...

Will try do both tests this evening and post results.

 

[coldcazzie]

Day 26 (18.9.09)
Ammonia: 1-2ppm. Nitrite: 2-5ppm. Nitrate: 5-10ppm. pH: 7.2.

Took out a jug of tank water, stired in 2 heaped teaspoons of bicarb and then put back in the tank - couldn't remember how much to add so thought would do 2 and then test again tomorrow and add more if neccessary. Sound ok?

 

[waterdrop]

Anything already over a pH of 7 is already pretty good for the bacteria but I gather you're hoping to optimize your pH up to 8 or above to make them faster if possible? If so then the 2 heaping teaspoons of bicarb may be just about right to do the trick, its perhaps a bit more than I would have suggested but the amount that bicarb can move *pH* upward tapers rather quickly (I think it moves KH up with a straighter graph line, compared to how it curves off for pH) anyway, should be fine so we'll watch to see what you got.

~~wd~~

 

[coldcazzie]

Yeh, it's more because it's dropped so suddenly again after the water change (started dropping after 2 weeks before, then 48 hours this time) - don't see the point in doing a 100% water change every few days if I can put the bicarb in to raise it, after all it's not like there's fish in there that would get stressed out. Will see what the tests show in the morning.