Fish Triva!

[CroNiC]

The term school is used in US and the term shoal is used in Europe ... just a guess

 

[Synirr]

Schools swim in an organised pattern whereas shoals just kinda bunch together

 

[Fish_Mike]

Another question:
How can fish remember (as many of you claim) if they have such small brains?
Surely such a small brain is not capable of that.

 

[rdd1952]

Not knowing the difference between schooling and shoaling fish, I had to resort to Google and learned something. the site I found said that shoaling fish were fish that liked to hang out together, listing corys and clown loaches. It said that schooling fish were fish that "swim in unison, forming a tight mass of seemingly one body of color all moving together" listing cardinals as an example. It also said that 6 or 8 cardinals (or any other true schooling fish) did not make a school. This is the site (since I have quoted it and want to make sure I give credit).

 

[fishing4exotics]

I was correct then

 

[Synirr]

Another question:
How can fish remember (as many of you claim) if they have such small brains?
Surely such a small brain is not capable of that.

Brain size is not necessarily an indication of mental capacity. Different regions of the brain are in control of different functions, and the development of these regions is what determines what an animal is and is not capable of. While fish have a very underdeveloped cerebral cortex, they do indeed have all the regions necessary for both short and long term memory

 

[andywg]

You weren't right Fishing4Exotics as you said a shoal is those fish that do not group in nature but do in an aqurium whereas shoals do appear in nature. In fact it is estimated that 25% of fish shoal throughout their lives with approximately half of all fish spending at least part of their lives.

The quick answer as pretty much stated by RDD is that a shoal fish is a group of fish swimming together as opposed to a school which is described as a polarised amorphous mass which moves as if the group were one (think defencive schools in marine fish).

This thread :

http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=103438&hl=

has more info than most will ever care to know. The definition lifted from a text book for that thread is:

Shoaling is perhaps the most fascinating social behaviour possessed by fish, although most attention has been focused on the most spectacular aspect of shoaling: schooling. A School of fish often seems to have a mind of its own, moving in co-ordinated fashion through complicated manoeuvres with the members precisely spaced within it. A shoal is any group of fishes that remains together for social reasons, whereas a school is a polarised, synchronised shoal (Pitcher and Parish 1993)

A bee can remember where a plant over 2 miles away was before communicating its location to the hive. They have a smaller mind than most fish. As Synirr pointed out there is no direct connection between the size of a brain and its ability.

 

[timmystood]

Another question:
How can fish remember (as many of you claim) if they have such small brains?
Surely such a small brain is not capable of that.

That, doesn't mean anything. Look at the Male Blue Whale - it has the largest brain that has ever been on this planet (in the known universerse too!) and yet, although clever, it doesn't carry the mental implications that we do. Like I say, Blue Whales are clever but humans still rule in the most useful brain department.

 

[Squid]

Schools of fish are surely more clever, the other lot couldn't even spell it. (shoal)

 

[fishing4exotics]

You weren't right Fishing4Exotics as you sid a shoal is those fish that do not group in nature but do in an aqurium whereas shoals do appear in nature. In fact it is estimated that 25% of fish shoal throughout their lives with approximately half of all fish spending at least part of their lives.

The quick answer as pretty much stated by RDD is that a shoal fish is a group of fish swimming together as opposed to a school which is described as a polarised amorphous mass which moves as if the group were one (think defencive schools in marine fish).

Considering I posted out of memory and not through a search, I think I was fairly correct. The part that you quoted could still be bases for an argument. Since, neither of us are behaviorist that study fish. Neither of us can state the other is "wrong".

 

[andywg]

You said that shoals do not group together in the wild. That is wrong. Simple as that. Parts of the answer were correct (though I think you will find it is possible for different species to form a school) but a large part of your answer was incorrect as already stated.

The answer was not posted by a search but from a masters to doctorate level reference book wriiten by 2 scientists with direct quotes to previous experiments and works to support their statement. Therefore I am fairly sure my quoted answer is correct as it does come from icthyologists.

 

[Miss Dib Dabs]

Love the ensueing arguement about the correct definition of a school and shoal. What a bunch we are.
Timmystood ~ I have to disagree with your reasoning about brains. What makes you so sure humans are the most intelligent creatures on this planet? I doubt very much that we are. After all look how much distruction we cause. If we're so smart we should know better then to destroy everything in our paths for our own selfishness. Just because an animal of any sort has what we consider to be a less developed brain, doesn't mean they are any less capable of concious thought. After all, it's been prooved that humans use only about one third of their total possible brain power. Not really very impressive eh.
We know too little about how any brain really works to understand how another animal uses it. So to call any animal dumb without irrefutable proof is simply ludicrous. Just as fish have certain instincts, so do human beings. So do all animals. But all are capable or learning from their lives and enviroment in similar ways. And just like some humans the way it is handled varies greatly from one to another. I, for instance, am nothing like my brothers. We don't have identical brain functions. My older brother has a very academical brain and can do such work with an ease I could only dream of. Yet in the real world he's daft. He has little to no clue how to deal with people nor live realistically in financial terms. I, on the other hand, was pretty naff at school but I have a great many friends and people that come to me for advice, despite my supposedly inferior brain. I consider pretty much all animals to work in very similar ways. I have a 12 yr old cat whom my Mother has the sister of. Mine is a well adjusted, smart friendly cat whereas his sister is a neurotic creature that gets stressed at every opportunity. Yet they're both cats. Both have the same parents, both have the same brains. Both have grown up in similar enviroments. They actually grew up together for several years. Same applies to fish. Some are more susceptable to stress where another of the same species in the same conditions would be perfectly happy.
Ok well I've said rather alot there. Whether most of it makes any sense I can only hope. I do tend to go on a bit. )
Hugs,
P.

 

[timmystood]

I agree - I should have made myself clearer. By more intelligent I mean that we are the only animals to have a developed brain that means we can think for ourselves rather than just act on instinct like animals.

 

[Miss Dib Dabs]

^See I don't agree with that. I believe animals are capable of thinking for themselves, not just act on instinct. I just think that many animals have instincts so strong that they have to obey them. But I believe humans do too. Or I'm sure we wouldn't half as many kids in world as we do. Just because we think it was our choice, doesn't mean we weren't driven by instinct to make that choice. If you follow me. And I find it hard to believe that, say, a catfish that can live in excess of 40 years is driven purely by instinct.
Hugs,
P.

 

[andywg]

That is because you are guilty of anthropomorphisation; the assigning of human traits to animals.

The "mirror test" is a good sign of intelligence. Most animals, upon seeing their reflection, will either attack or ignore. the more intelligent ones (most apes and a few birds) will realise it is themself and start to study the mirror.

why couldn't something live for 40 (or 200) years on instinct? Most animals are not self aware. They never wonder why they are hungry, they just eat when hungry.