Fish Sick Due To Stress?

[Schmill]

I had a delivery of fish today, and spent time aclimatising them to the tank, however I could not spend to long as the water was pretty cold that they arrived in.

Most fish seem ok (if somewhat slow, almost coma from the cold), but I have about 4-5 cardinal tetra, and 1 rummy nose tetra who are spiraling in the water, and going nose over tail, then floating upside down for a bit, basically trying to swim but not making a very good job of it. Seems like the symptoms of swimbladder problems to me, but is this possible through stress?

At the moment I have all the 'dizzy' fish floating in my fry trap, so they are in the tank, in the same water and with flow, but not in freefall around the whole tank.

Is there anything else I can do for them or is it just a case of waiting and seeing if they recover?

Thanks!

 

[Colin_T]

The spiralling can be brought about by poor water quality (perhaps from the bag) or more likely a protozoan/ bacterial infection they had before they were packed and sent. Reduce the water movement in the tank so the fish aren't getting blown all over the place, but make sure there is still plenty of surface turbulence to keep oxygen levels high. Then it's just a matter of wait and see how they do over the next 24-48hours.

I would take some photos of the fish in bad positions and contact the company that sent them. They should have a guarantee of some sort stating the fish will arrive alive and well. Yours definitely are not well.

 

[Schmill]

Cheers for the reply Colin. I've phoned the company that sent them.
Then do have a 'live' arrival guarantee, which will cover the 3 that were already dead, but I'm not so sure about the ones that are just "not well". On the phone earlier I told them about the problems, and if any more are dead tomorrow I shall phone them and let them know and see what they say. I think the package was probably dropped, or kept upsidedown for some time, as the polystyrene box had a considerable amount of water in it, which I don't believe is right.
On the bright side a lot of the cardinals seem to have picked up, so I've release them into the main tank and keeping my fingers crossed.
That leaves me with 3 dead rummy nose, and 1 rummy nose + 1 Cardinal that are upside down, seem to be in a bad way. I'll see how they are in the morning

 

[minxfishy]

Any news schmill on these fish? Also when you spoke to the company did you explain the condition of the box, leaking water etc that the fish arrived in?

 

[Schmill]

Well I came down in the morning, and the Cardinal was happily swimming around, but the Rummy Nose was dead, so I fish the Rummy Nose out of the fry trap and released the cardinal.

The looked around the tank checking everyone else, and found a dead Rummy Nose..... and another... and another....
So that left one Rummy Nose in the tank who was looking dodgy, so I moved him into the fry trap, (by sinking it and placing it under him so no net used). Almost as soon as I did so & he was out of the main flow of the tank, he rolled over and died I noticed he also had slight white speckling on him then.
Then I noticed the cardinal that I had just released was not looking well, so put him back in the fry trap. On close inspection his fins seemed feathered and white.
I dosed the whole tank with Melafix to try and help, but a few hours later the cardinal was dead too.
I have carried on dosing with melafix again today (sunday) to try and help the other fish in the tank.

So thats 8 dead Rummy Nose and 1 dead Cardinal. To be honest I had expected to lose ALL the cardinals as well, so I'm semi-pleased, and am keeping my fingers crossed for the next few days.

I e-mailed the company concerned, complete with pictures of the state of the packaging, and they have agreed to re-credit me for the losses, and also agree it seems like something happened during the shipping handling.

Heres the shipping:

Wet Outer Box:

Water in Outer Bag:

Dented Poly Box:

Wet Newspaper Inside the box:

(I think this is supposed to be dry and provide some insulation!)


Still, I think it is all sorted now, and I'm keeping my fingers crossed for the other fish, but feeling more positive about them

 

[Colin_T]

The rummynose sound like they are dieing due to the tank. Not that the water is bad or anything like that. Newly imported rummynose tetras can be sensitive to water conditions and often die at the slightest disturbance. They basically die from shock even if the tank is clean. They take a few weeks to settle down and if they are disturbed during this time they often fall over dead. We had it happen a lot in the shop when a new batch of fish came in. We would put the fish in a clean healthy tank with good water and a few other healthy fish. And as long as we didn't go in the tank or do anything to it for a week they were fine. But if we caught a fish out or did a water change then the fish would start falling over. Once they had been in the tank for a week or so they settled down but we still had to be careful for the first few weeks.
Having the tank lights go on when the room was dark was another thing that triggered the fish to fall over and die during the first few weeks. The sudden bright light was enough to shock them and we had several occasions where the fish were swimming around fine until the tank light went on. Then they started dropping like flies. Within a couple of minutes most were dead on the bottom.

The dent in the bottom of the esky is unlikely to be a problem and was probably caused by packing tape. Likewise the water in the bottom of the big bag isn't an issue but it probably came out of a bag with fish in and that would mean the oxygen also came out of the bag. My guess is it came out of the bag in the top left of the last picture. Having little or no air in the bag and possible being squished would certainly stress the fish and could lead to this type of problem.

How many bags were in the esky? if there were only a few bags and there was nothing stopping them from rolling about, then it could have been a combination of rough handling, (ie: the bags rolling around in the box) and lack of air. Also if the box was tipped upside down (and it appears to have been due to the water on the top, then the bag of fish could have landed badly and shocked or damaged the fish in the bag/s.
We usually try to pack the bags into a box so they can't move. If the box is too big then we put a couple of air bags (fish bags with air only) in the box to prevent the bags of fish moving around.

Don't do any water changes on the tank for a week or so and when you do start doing water changes again, only do small 10-20% changes. A couple of weeks after that and you should be right to go back to your normal water change regime.

 

[Schmill]

Indentally I noticed also last night that the red stripe on the cardinals seems to be quite washed out. The blue/green seems fine, but the red is very pale. Is this again due to stress and should come back over the next few days / weeks?

EDIT
Just had a call to say another Cardinal has just been found dead

 

[Colin_T]

the faded red line in the cardinals can be stress or a bacterial infection. It is usually stress related tho.

 

[Schmill]

So just a case of waiting for them then to settle in? I take it it isn't worth dosing with an Anti Internal Bacteria treatment unless something else actually reveals itself and points at that?

 

[Colin_T]

yep just wait and see how they do. Try to minimise the stress they are exposed to, (ie: don't work in the tank or expose the fish to sudden movements or changes of light). And don't bother treating them unless they show a major disease problem.

 

[Schmill]

yep just wait and see how they do. Try to minimise the stress they are exposed to, (ie: don't work in the tank or expose the fish to sudden movements or changes of light). And don't bother treating them unless they show a major disease problem.

Cheers for your help Colin. The lighting on the tank are 2 x 39W T5 tubes, which come on at 9 in the morning, and off at 6 in the evening. At both of these times the room lights are normally on, so will this be adjusting the light gradually enough for them or should I be trying to leave the tank lights off all the time at the moment? The only problem with the last option is obviously the plants will then suffer.

Thanks again

 

[Colin_T]

if the room lights are on for 30minutes or more before the tank lights come on then they should be ok. The only way you could make it easier on the fish would be to have one globe come on and then an hour later the other globe comes on. The opposite can be done at night when one light goes off, then an hour later the other one can. Then 30minutes after that the room light can go off if need be.
If you are concerned about the plants getting enough light then just leave them on for an hour more each day.
After a week or so when the fish have settled down you can have both globes come on and off at the same time.

 

[Schmill]

if the room lights are on for 30minutes or more before the tank lights come on then they should be ok. The only way you could make it easier on the fish would be to have one globe come on and then an hour later the other globe comes on. The opposite can be done at night when one light goes off, then an hour later the other one can. Then 30minutes after that the room light can go off if need be.
If you are concerned about the plants getting enough light then just leave them on for an hour more each day.
After a week or so when the fish have settled down you can have both globes come on and off at the same time.

Ok thanks, after I posted I thought you might say something like that. The thing is both tubes are mounted in the lid of the tank as part of the manufacturers design, so both tubes come on together, and both go off together.
I guess really the room lights are the only option for now then as an 'intermediate stage' of lighting. I am intending to fit some 'moonlighting' to the tank using cold cathod tubes, but by the time I get that ordered and then all sorted hopefully the fish will have settled in anyway

 

[Schmill]

UPDATE

The dent in the bottom of the esky (I presume that's the name for the polybox), wasn't caused by packing tape. I know this because there was no packing tape there - lol
The bags were packed in fairly snuggly, and there was an 'air bag' on the top but only in the center, not so it wouldn't have stopped anything moving if the box had actually tipped.

FISH HEALTH

I understand that the fish may just be stressed, but I also believe that stressing fish can make them susceptible to other illnesses.
The cardinals still have washed out red stripes, and some of the fish, (not just cardinals), have developed an occasional shaking or jitter. They don't seem to be flicking off of the rocks or substrate etc, but just stop swimming, have a little shake, and then carry on.

To me it seems possible that theres an Internal Bacteria problem, but I could be way off target with than.
Should I treat with the Interpet Anti Internal Bacteria (#9) ?

Thanks

 

[Colin_T]

Stress does make fish susceptible to other diseases so there is possibly a problem starting in the tank.

If the red line on the cardinals is still fading and other fish are starting to have the occasional shake/ irritation, then it could be bacterial and protozoan. It is unlikely to be an internal bacterial infection but more an external type that is damaging the red line. The shaking/ irritation could be something like costia or whitespot that might be developing.
I'm not sure what is in the interpet internal bacterial treatment but if it contains methylene blue, malachite green, formaldehyde/ formalin or copper then it could be used to treat both these problems.
If the interpet medication doesn't have any of those ingredients then perhaps get something like Waterlife Protozin. But most fish medications have similar ingredients so you could try the interpet one first and see how the fish do over the next few days.

To work out the volume of water in the tank
measure Length x Width x Height in cm
divide by 1000
equals volume in litres

When measuring the height, measure from the top of the gravel to the top of the water level. If you have big rocks or driftwood in the tank, remove them before measuring the height.

Remove carbon from the filter before treating otherwise it will absorb the medication out of the water.

If you have any catfish or loaches in the tank then be careful with the medication. Most will suggest using a half dose for catfish.