First tank, now planted

White Crown

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Three white clouds and a nerite. Just added the narrow java fern a few days ago and getting the black spots that some associate with potassium/nutrient deficiency. I would like to not need to fertilize but is that possible? Ive seen java fern in biosphere setups and they dont fertilize, I know its different but where are they getting their nutrients if not rooted and can I mimic that in a filtered tank?
 

Rocky998

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The tank looks really nice. But white clouds should also always be in a school of 6 or more... 8 or more ideally. How big is the tank? It almost looks like a five gallon...
 
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White Crown

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Thank you. So, I originally bought only two not knowing about schooling behavior. Initially it was just the snail in there. They were getting extra pushy with each other so I looked it up and learned about the schooling. I don't want to say how big (small) the tank is but let's just say a lot smaller than 5 and not a good idea to add more. I am doing a few water changes a week and vacuuming, and testing weekly. So far so good but I am cycling another tank, the right way this time, so they are gonna have to stay in there like that for now. My friend who used to do many types of tanks told me at least 3 were needed to settle them but usually more. The three are doing very well together. I also read some people claim their schools regularly split up into groups of 2 or 3 anyway so maybe thats why they are fine for now. I absolutely love these fish so the plan is to add them to a bigger tank and do 3-4 more at least.
 

Rocky998

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Thank you. So, I originally bought only two not knowing about schooling behavior. Initially it was just the snail in there. They were getting extra pushy with each other so I looked it up and learned about the schooling. I don't want to say how big (small) the tank is but let's just say a lot smaller than 5 and not a good idea to add more. I am doing a few water changes a week and vacuuming, and testing weekly. So far so good but I am cycling another tank, the right way this time, so they are gonna have to stay in there like that for now. My friend who used to do many types of tanks told me at least 3 were needed to settle them but usually more. The three are doing very well together. I also read some people claim their schools regularly split up into groups of 2 or 3 anyway so maybe thats why they are fine for now. I absolutely love these fish so the plan is to add them to a bigger tank and do 3-4 more at least.
That's good to hear! Usually people get a 20g long for these guys and do a school of 10 plus or minus a few... If you get a 10 gallon for these guys I would do no more than 8 of these fish. You don't want to over stock... If the tank is less than 5 gallons, definitely stick with the more than one weekly water changes until you can move them to a larger tank...
 
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White Crown

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Update on the java fern, it hasn't gotten any worse with the black/brown spots, so I think it was just adjusting and is getting enough nutrients now. The minnows are still doing great, they love swimming around and through the hornwort together. I am still having to do about a 1/3 water change every other day to keep the nitrates down, I don't want to overcrowd with plants though and take away valuable swimming space.
 
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White Crown

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This is not directed only or specifically to anyone on this thread and I'm trying to be nice, but my post was about the java fern and nobody here has offered any help on it. This is also a problem on other forums.

I have already stated that I have a larger tank currently cycling to move the minnows into and increase their school size. I bought the tank for 1 nerite snail and it was recommended to put white cloud minnows in as well before I read about the hard and fast 10 gallon rule, which seems to be more of an indoctrinated concept than an inflexible truth. Regardless I am in the process of upsizing their habitat anyway because I wanted them to be more happy.

I want to learn, but I am finding the online environment very hostile to anyone who doesn't follow a set of indoctrinated rules, each of which I am slowly uncovering. For example online you would be accused of animal cruelty for "overstocking" more than the set of "fish forum hard rules". In reality, the few people I know that have experience say you can slightly overstock but it depends on the fish/aquarium setup and if you do you MUST keep up on testing and water changes so it is not recommended. The second one sounds not only more true but also more friendly and less self-righteous.

Also, 1 inch of fish per gallon? Explain to me how 5 individual one inch fish have the same bio load at one 5 inch fish when the mass of a 5 inch fish is much greater than the mass of 5 individual one inch fish. The self-righteous have used this as a weapon though rather than account for bio load differentiation between species. Self-righteous math, nothing more.

I was embarrassed to say, but the tank size is one gallon. Yes, one (1). Crucify me.
 
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White Crown

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I want to apologize. This is my own fault, not yours. This is why I left all the parrot forums. I keep my parrot in a huge cage but the parrot people would crucify me because I don't have any flat perches or swings as he NEVER would touch them. I've had him for 12 years and he's been perfectly healthy on every vet check, still, I am not following the forum's prescribed rules so he's going to develop foot problems (ignore the fact that I supplement the flat perch issue with a huge round one, that doesn't match the math equation for keeping parrots). I should have known online fish people would be the same.
 

Rocky998

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My java ferns have black and brown spots and I dont really worry... They go and come with time... I think this is why we are kore concerned with the fish rather than the plants... Fish keepers do consider it animal cruelty if fish are kept in a very small set up because its the owners responsibility to know what that animal needs. And most of us have been "animal abusers" on this forum with the things we've done. Most everyone has actually been very kind at letting you know things on here its just hard to hear how their saying it over texting so we put our own tone in front of someones message.
 

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can we get some pictures of the plant in question so we can see the issue?
 

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I want to apologize. This is my own fault, not yours. This is why I left all the parrot forums. I keep my parrot in a huge cage but the parrot people would crucify me because I don't have any flat perches or swings as he NEVER would touch them. I've had him for 12 years and he's been perfectly healthy on every vet check, still, I am not following the forum's prescribed rules so he's going to develop foot problems (ignore the fact that I supplement the flat perch issue with a huge round one, that doesn't match the math equation for keeping parrots). I should have known online fish people would be the same.
I agree my dad has been keeping fish since the 50’s and he was pretty pumped when I showed him my 2.5g betta tank.
I started talking about it here though and all but one person tried to tell me I need to have a 10g for this fish.
Truth of the matter is you really don’t even need a full gallon, but I gave him 2.5 so he could have some room to breathe.
Here’s a pic of a betta farm, and before you go calling this animal abuse, know that this is common practice everywhere in the world.
760F646A-6834-48FC-BF18-34977560E89F.jpeg

41B593FF-D2C2-4377-86FC-DEC08924AAF5.jpeg

If you want to be a bit nicer they tend to use 1 gallon jars and black water.
But I find it hard to believe that keeping my fish in a 2.5g aquarium with plants in it is fish abuse when these fish live in puddles 4” deep or less in the wild, in rice paddies which are only flooded thanks to humans and only during part of the year, and they’re constantly being farmed in what is literally a red solo cup.
If you understand the science then at least you’ll be able to find out that there’s a few things that online aquarium people will nitpick you for and you can just ignore them.
 
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White Crown

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Rocky thank you personally, you have been very kind indeed. I am not reading into tone, and no post here was blatantly mean or anything. It just so irritating that the online forum culture is to ignore that someone is trying to do better so you can tell them what they already know they are doing wrong.

Its a culture, is not you, nor anyone else here specifically.

Colin, thanks for trying to help, the java fern is the narrow leaf to the left of the pic in my first post. I think its good now though as it hasnt gotten any worse. that first day was shocking to me though.
 

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The java fern in the photo in the first post looks fine to me. They do get algae growing on the leaves if the light is too bright, and they also get sporangia, a fern's reproductive organ, growing on the underside of the leaves. You can see the plant from all angles - do the black spots look like either of those?


Explain to me how 5 individual one inch fish have the same bio load at one 5 inch fish when the mass of a 5 inch fish is much greater than the mass of 5 individual one inch fish
They don't. The one inch per gallon "rule" only applies to fish which grow to a maximum of 3 inches, and which have torpedo shaped bodies so it doesn't apply to fish shaped like gouramis.
The length of the tank is as important as the volume with some fish needing longer tanks than others of the same size due to they fast swimming behaviour. It's the length which is causing concern to the other posters as the photo makes the tank look tall and thin.
 
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White Crown

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No they aren't on the underside, just on the top of the leaves. By all the articles I've read and videos I've watched I'm pretty sure its a nutrient deficiency. I mainly just want to know if there is anything I can do to prevent the need to fertilize. This tank is probably going to end up housing a couple shrimp instead, maybe something with their waste product will be different and more beneficial? A different plant than the hornwort that competes with specific nutrients differently perhaps?
 

Rocky998

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I agree my dad has been keeping fish since the 50’s and he was pretty pumped when I showed him my 2.5g betta tank.
I started talking about it here though and all but one person tried to tell me I need to have a 10g for this fish.
Truth of the matter is you really don’t even need a full gallon, but I gave him 2.5 so he could have some room to breathe.
Here’s a pic of a betta farm, and before you go calling this animal abuse, know that this is common practice everywhere in the world.View attachment 156932
View attachment 156933
If you want to be a bit nicer they tend to use 1 gallon jars and black water.
But I find it hard to believe that keeping my fish in a 2.5g aquarium with plants in it is fish abuse when these fish live in puddles 4” deep or less in the wild, in rice paddies which are only flooded thanks to humans and only during part of the year, and they’re constantly being farmed in what is literally a red solo cup.
If you understand the science then at least you’ll be able to find out that there’s a few things that online aquarium people will nitpick you for and you can just ignore them.
Thats just mass housing them... Its not right to keep them like that but thats how they get from place to place and hopefully end up with someone who knows what their doing. 2.5g is way too small for a betta fish being held long term... The mass fish dealers dont care about individual fish and they may have many deaths...
Rocky thank you personally, you have been very kind indeed. I am not reading into tone, and no post here was blatantly mean or anything. It just so irritating that the online forum culture is to ignore that someone is trying to do better so you can tell them what they already know they are doing wrong.
No problem and also thank you for the compliment.
I completely understand what you're saying. After a while of being here and "getting to know" members you'll see that most are very kind and just trying to help. It is very good that you recognize the issue as a lot of people dont know until someone tells them whats wrong. So its very good that you know what you need to do for your animals.
 

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