Filters,heaters,air and other fish myths.
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TwoTankAmin
Fish Connoisseur
Hard to read this thread all the way through. A lot of misinformation, IMO. I am not going to get crazy and try and point all of it out, so I will just make a few observations.
I have met the gentleman in question. We were both vendors at the last NEC weekend in April. We traded some fish, he went home with black neons from me and I with CPDs from him. The stock and plants he had for sale looked fine to me. You cannot have healthy stuff if it is not being cared for properly. I can also tell you that most vendors at shows change water over the weekend. L.R. Bretz did so. I do so even though I have cycled filters in all the tanks.
Next, I have all the test kits I need and have for 19 years. However, I almost never use any of them. I do not agree on the opinion in this thread about TDS vs GH and KH kits. I have only used TDS or conductivity now for about 6 years. My altum tank has a continuous monitor which reads conductivity or TDS, temp in F or C and pH.
I do use two of my kits occasionally. I use the ammonia kit when I am running my bio-farm for cycling filters and/or keeping them cycled for when I set up a new tank or when I do events. I am dosing a lot of ammonia and I need to be sure I do not overdose. So I test for ammonia off and on. The only other kit I use is the niitrate kit despite how inaccurate they tend to be, I use these on the tanks where I am breeding the rare B&W Hypancistrus plecos- L236, zebra and L173. Triggering them to spawn sometimes requires raising TDS, temp and even pH some over months and then reversing those parameters rapidly. The one caveat in the process is not to allow nitrate to build up. So I will use the test kit. Part of the dry/rainy process requires dropping the TDS in half.
Please realize that pure water is an awful conductor of electricity. It is all the other stuff dissolved in it which does that. TDS includes everything. GH and KH are a part of it. However, there is a lot more stuff than just what is measured by these two kits. Ions matter, nitrite, nitrate and ammonium are all ions for example. But many of the things in water are ions. Dissolved organics contribute to TDS, they wiil not be detected by GH or KH kits.
I also know that you can do a tank with plants and no filter or heater. However, water will be changed now and then and the tank will need topping up for evaporation. But this should be done with ro/water. Many solids will not evaporate with the water and are not consumed by anything. So they are building up in the tank. If you top up with tap, whatever solids are in the tap are added to the tank and this increases the total. However, add RO and the level of solids is diluted rather than increased. There is one thing all tanks need and that is gas exchange. CO2 must be able to get out and oxygen must get in. For this some form of surface agitation is needed. Also both ammonia and chlorine evaporate out of water, they are gasses that are difficult to keep in any solid form.
Finally, JUST BECAUSE IT IS ON YOUTUBE DOESN'T MAKE IT TRUE.
and
I have never seen a fish die because the water was too clean (note I am not saying too pure).
You don't believe me or anything else in this post. Instead have a read here. Dr. Tanner is a Ph.D. We have talked in person and via emails on and off for a few years. His site has some of the best explanations of filtration in nature and tanks. I have been switching over to Mattenfilters and Poret foam cubes for the last few years.
http://www.swisstropicals.com/library/aquarium-biofiltration/
I have met the gentleman in question. We were both vendors at the last NEC weekend in April. We traded some fish, he went home with black neons from me and I with CPDs from him. The stock and plants he had for sale looked fine to me. You cannot have healthy stuff if it is not being cared for properly. I can also tell you that most vendors at shows change water over the weekend. L.R. Bretz did so. I do so even though I have cycled filters in all the tanks.
Next, I have all the test kits I need and have for 19 years. However, I almost never use any of them. I do not agree on the opinion in this thread about TDS vs GH and KH kits. I have only used TDS or conductivity now for about 6 years. My altum tank has a continuous monitor which reads conductivity or TDS, temp in F or C and pH.
I do use two of my kits occasionally. I use the ammonia kit when I am running my bio-farm for cycling filters and/or keeping them cycled for when I set up a new tank or when I do events. I am dosing a lot of ammonia and I need to be sure I do not overdose. So I test for ammonia off and on. The only other kit I use is the niitrate kit despite how inaccurate they tend to be, I use these on the tanks where I am breeding the rare B&W Hypancistrus plecos- L236, zebra and L173. Triggering them to spawn sometimes requires raising TDS, temp and even pH some over months and then reversing those parameters rapidly. The one caveat in the process is not to allow nitrate to build up. So I will use the test kit. Part of the dry/rainy process requires dropping the TDS in half.
Please realize that pure water is an awful conductor of electricity. It is all the other stuff dissolved in it which does that. TDS includes everything. GH and KH are a part of it. However, there is a lot more stuff than just what is measured by these two kits. Ions matter, nitrite, nitrate and ammonium are all ions for example. But many of the things in water are ions. Dissolved organics contribute to TDS, they wiil not be detected by GH or KH kits.
I also know that you can do a tank with plants and no filter or heater. However, water will be changed now and then and the tank will need topping up for evaporation. But this should be done with ro/water. Many solids will not evaporate with the water and are not consumed by anything. So they are building up in the tank. If you top up with tap, whatever solids are in the tap are added to the tank and this increases the total. However, add RO and the level of solids is diluted rather than increased. There is one thing all tanks need and that is gas exchange. CO2 must be able to get out and oxygen must get in. For this some form of surface agitation is needed. Also both ammonia and chlorine evaporate out of water, they are gasses that are difficult to keep in any solid form.
Finally, JUST BECAUSE IT IS ON YOUTUBE DOESN'T MAKE IT TRUE.
and
I have never seen a fish die because the water was too clean (note I am not saying too pure).
You don't believe me or anything else in this post. Instead have a read here. Dr. Tanner is a Ph.D. We have talked in person and via emails on and off for a few years. His site has some of the best explanations of filtration in nature and tanks. I have been switching over to Mattenfilters and Poret foam cubes for the last few years.
http://www.swisstropicals.com/library/aquarium-biofiltration/
Hello,
Firstly I have to say Iām not a genius in fish keeping but I have a good understanding in the basic fundamentals and this would start with the 100% complete nitrogen cycle from ammonia to nitirite to nitrate then to the holy grail nitrogen gas witch for years fish keepers believe is not achieved in an aquarium that isnāt fully planted and this basically comes down to being too long in the game when the tech was not very strong.
Our day an age people have achieved many breakthroughs in the fish keeping hobby making the hobby an easier more beneficial experience for the hobbyist and the viewers making it a much pleasurable game!
I have been out of the hobby for roughly 15 years and only just come back in realizing how much more advanced the hobby has become itās fantastic although unfortunately there are a lot of āseasonedā fish keepers that wonāt change there mind on the certain abilities that are now achievable though new tech and materials available.
So for my 2 cents would be to focus on achieving the full nitrogen cycle to turn nittrates into soluble nitrogen gas and complete the full cycle! This will complete your eco system and reduce water changes dramatically!
If you think about nature no one changes the river water and lake water or even ocean water! The water evaporates and so does the nitrogen gas. The planet rains an replenishes the rivers lakes an ocean! There IS nitrifying bacteria that lives in nature that COMPLETES the cycle and being a fish hobbyist there is nothing better than achieving to replicate nature!!!
As for certain species from different areas that need different water conditions and species that just donāt belong together due to āreplication to natureā then this is one area I would not mess around with. You shouldnāt try change nature or try to itās not necessary in my opinion. Replicate it donāt stuff with it lol...
So to end this I will reiterate the nitrogen cycle and use your energy an money to replicate a piece of nature in your home everyone can appreciate and get that holy grail nitrate to soluble gas and complete the eco system! Itās now possible with out using a fully planted system and with out risking using 6inch thick substrate!!!
- Proper filtration (correct flow rates for volume)
- Bio media to water ratio and bio load
- Removal of chemical products that eliminate ammonia, nitrite and nitrates in result starving the beneficial bacteria
Happy fish keeping!
Firstly I have to say Iām not a genius in fish keeping but I have a good understanding in the basic fundamentals and this would start with the 100% complete nitrogen cycle from ammonia to nitirite to nitrate then to the holy grail nitrogen gas witch for years fish keepers believe is not achieved in an aquarium that isnāt fully planted and this basically comes down to being too long in the game when the tech was not very strong.
Our day an age people have achieved many breakthroughs in the fish keeping hobby making the hobby an easier more beneficial experience for the hobbyist and the viewers making it a much pleasurable game!
I have been out of the hobby for roughly 15 years and only just come back in realizing how much more advanced the hobby has become itās fantastic although unfortunately there are a lot of āseasonedā fish keepers that wonāt change there mind on the certain abilities that are now achievable though new tech and materials available.
So for my 2 cents would be to focus on achieving the full nitrogen cycle to turn nittrates into soluble nitrogen gas and complete the full cycle! This will complete your eco system and reduce water changes dramatically!
If you think about nature no one changes the river water and lake water or even ocean water! The water evaporates and so does the nitrogen gas. The planet rains an replenishes the rivers lakes an ocean! There IS nitrifying bacteria that lives in nature that COMPLETES the cycle and being a fish hobbyist there is nothing better than achieving to replicate nature!!!
As for certain species from different areas that need different water conditions and species that just donāt belong together due to āreplication to natureā then this is one area I would not mess around with. You shouldnāt try change nature or try to itās not necessary in my opinion. Replicate it donāt stuff with it lol...
So to end this I will reiterate the nitrogen cycle and use your energy an money to replicate a piece of nature in your home everyone can appreciate and get that holy grail nitrate to soluble gas and complete the eco system! Itās now possible with out using a fully planted system and with out risking using 6inch thick substrate!!!
- Proper filtration (correct flow rates for volume)
- Bio media to water ratio and bio load
- Removal of chemical products that eliminate ammonia, nitrite and nitrates in result starving the beneficial bacteria
Happy fish keeping!
With respect, this is not accurate. The nitrogen cycle completed part is true, that can/will occur in the substrate but it most certainly does not negate the need for water changes. Partial water changes do more than most seem to realize. There is "stuff" in the water that you simply cannot remove by any other means, and this "stuff" as it accumulates is harmful to fish. TwoTankAmin was referring to this in his comments on TDS. You need water changes to get rid of this pollution.
There is a misunderstanding about water changes here too. In nature the fish do not live in the same water for more than a second or two. Every respiration is "new" water. The ratio of fish to water volume is so far greater than any aquarium, and even more when you factor in the constantly moving water. This is impossible in the aquarium unless you have continual flow-through of fresh water, and I doubt anyone on this forum has that set-up. The partial water change is our only way to even begin to come close. At least, with the level of stocking most of us have. I read somewhere that a 55 gallon aquarium, heavily planted, that contained only six black neon tetras, could sustain itself without water changes. But nothing beyond that.
AbbeysDad
Fish Gatherer
There are few, if any, FW aquariums that can convert tank nitrates into nitrogen gas. It is very difficult to culture anaerobic or anoxic faculative bacteria in the highly oxygenated fresh water aquarium that can process nitrates.
With 50+ years in the hobby, I guess I'm 'seasoned', but with high nitrates in my well water, I've attempted for years from many directions to reduce tank nitrates to achieve minimal volume partial water changes. Although my efforts and experiments continue, I have yet to succeed in culturing the necessary bacteria required to process nitrates.
(Although possible in a large, heavily planted tank with very few small fish, that's just not the average tank).
Byron is also correct on a couple of important points. In nature, fresh water is constantly renewed by rain and snow melt so fish are seeing 'new' water all the time. Additionally, our test for pollution is limited to nitrates. In fact, there are many other pollutants that the routine partial water change resolves bu dilution. The partial water change also replenishes necessary minerals used by plants and fish.
So the hobby has advanced, but the laws of nature have not changed and in the aquarium, the solution to pollution is [still] dilution. In nature, it's the rain. For the aquarium, it's the hobbyist.
You can buy denitrators from pet shops. They are just an external filter with a very slow flow rate of water (1 drop per second). You feed them an alcohol or carbon tablet (can't remember which coz it was a long time ago) each day and after a couple of months the anaerobic filter bacteria have developed and convert nitrates into nitrogen gas.
I fed mine each day for about 6 months but stopped adding the tablets because they were hideously expensive. After I stopped using the tablets, the filter continued to work and remove nitrates. So I'm not sure if the tablets are a gimmick or they are needed but only in small amounts.
For anyone wanting to make a denitrating filter, just get an external canister filter and fill it with sponges. Start the water draining into the filter and adjust the tap so it only has 1 drop per second. It will take a couple of months for the bacteria to develop and then it's off and running.
--------------------------
You do water changes for a couple of reasons.
1) to reduce nutrients like ammonia, nitrite & nitrate.
2) to dilute disease organisms in the water.
Fish live in a soup of microscopic organisms including bacteria, fungus, viruses, protozoans, worms, flukes and various other things that make your skin crawl. Doing a big water change and gravel cleaning the substrate on a regular basis will dilute these organisms and reduce their numbers in the water, thus making it a safer and healthier environment for the fish.
I fed mine each day for about 6 months but stopped adding the tablets because they were hideously expensive. After I stopped using the tablets, the filter continued to work and remove nitrates. So I'm not sure if the tablets are a gimmick or they are needed but only in small amounts.
For anyone wanting to make a denitrating filter, just get an external canister filter and fill it with sponges. Start the water draining into the filter and adjust the tap so it only has 1 drop per second. It will take a couple of months for the bacteria to develop and then it's off and running.
--------------------------
You do water changes for a couple of reasons.
1) to reduce nutrients like ammonia, nitrite & nitrate.
2) to dilute disease organisms in the water.
Fish live in a soup of microscopic organisms including bacteria, fungus, viruses, protozoans, worms, flukes and various other things that make your skin crawl. Doing a big water change and gravel cleaning the substrate on a regular basis will dilute these organisms and reduce their numbers in the water, thus making it a safer and healthier environment for the fish.
What you really seem to want is to ignore experienced, educated people and get someone to tell you how wonderful you and your "new" ideas are. The reason people stick with what works and learn from their own and others' experience is pretty obvious, but if you are looking for someone to tell you whatever you want to do is OK, then just do it instead of looking for someone to insult because they aren't willing to pretend they don't know any better.
When you're wrong, you're wrong! If you don't like hearing that, then go somewhere that they are all newbies and will not know you are wrong. You seem like the kind of person who would like to "discuss" whether or not the sky looks blue, and you're color blind, so you can argue about it and expect others to "discuss" it with you.
AbbeysDad
Fish Gatherer
Been there and done that, Not quite that simple. Coil denitrators and the Aquaripure filter come to mind. The trouble is that at a drop per second, these filters would have a problem in the average tank with average bio-load as the nitrogenous waste is simply too great. (Again, nitrates are not an issue in a heavily planted tank with just a few small fish - but that's not the average tank with average bio-load.)
Well, actually no. In a cycled/established tank, aerobic bacteria (nitrosomonas and nitrospira) will process ammonia into nitrites and then into nitrates. So there will never be any measurable ammonia or nitrites.
The routine partial water change removes some nitrates as it dilutes all of the pollution and replaces minerals.
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