Feeder Fish

[The-Wolf]

Wolf, 'out of sight out of mind' is possibly the worst arguement.

quite possibly so but it is upto now my position.
I guess that is one of the reasons for this topic.
I'm open to have my mind opened and so far it is achieving just that.

 

[PRW1988]

I've fed feeder fish many times, I know it's not always the best choice, and not recommended, but when I kept Oscars I had one very picky one that refused to eat pellets, he would eat frozen food however where I am that can be quiet expensive, each week I'd grab about 30 large feeder fish and he loved them, so I continued to feed them. Oviously the others got some too.

I don't recommend feeding live goldfish or guppies, however if the fish is being picky and you have no other option I do condon it. Another thing I've actually found to be a great food is Superworms and mealworm, my cichlids (when I had them) went wild for these worms.

 

[three-fingers]

FISH, hmmmm so even if the fish is not being swallowed whole by a predator fish than it gets ground up in a grinder and made into a flake? I'd personally rather be swallowed whole than put through a grinder.

As mentioned above, almost all flake and pellet food contains fish, and, unlike most mammals butchered for human consumption, there is not all that much of a humane slaughter process for aquatic animals.

I did used to be 100% against feeders apart from when the animal needed to eat live fish. But it's points like this that changed my views on the subject completely. I am against the use of commercially bought feeders, based on the information on this forum and experience I've heard from others - they are are really just an irresponsible choice.
I would personally would never use feeders (though I do on occasion feed live foods like brine shrimp, crickets or home cultured daphnia), but can see their use in some situations. To me, it really depends how and why they are used. It needs to be quick for the feeder, and involve as little stress as possible.
What annoys me is people who use feeders just to see a fish being ripped apart or for the apparent humility in seeing a minnow desperately trying to escape the jaws of a predator in a entirely unnatural situation...
A quick look on youtube gives very a bad impression of people who use feeders, but I've realised now that it's not all like that in the slightest .

 

[andywg]

What annoys me is people who use feeders just to see a fish being ripped apart or for the apparent humility in seeing a minnow desperately trying to escape the jaws of a predator in a entirely unnatural situation...
A quick look on youtube gives very a bad impression of people who use feeders, but I've realised now that it's not all like that in the slightest .

However, are they really marvelling at the weakness of the prey, or the abilities of the predator?

I love watching my frogfish eat live shrimp. It is truly a great sight and has to be seen to truly appreciate the speed of the strike, not to mention being able to watch the luring action draw in the prey. I know I should be upset at the plight of the shrimp, but the frogfish is pretty much the pinnacle of aggressive mimicry.

What many people do fail to understand is some people have different values than others. Also, barring the nutritional problems of feeding a goldfish it might not be so bad for it to be ripped apart by a pack of carniverous fish. When swallowed whole, a fish will die of asphyxiation, possibly while digestion commences. This asphyxiation is likely to take longer than a fish which is almost instantly ripped into a number of pieces. While it may look worse, is it really a more stressful death? I am not entirely sure.

 

[ArauraDiscus]

Call me what you want, but this isn't a problem to me. I eat animals all the time, which are probably tortured all their life until being butchered and delivered to my dinner table. I'm never heard of a piscavore, Only herbavore, omnivore, and carnivore. But humans are omnivores. God meant for us to eat meat at times and eat vegetation at other times. Many fish that can eat live foods are carnivores. In the wild all they will do is eat fish. THere is no flake food in the wild. The only reason many of them eat the flake foods is because it is mostly made from ground up feeder fish. If you buy flake food, you are buying ground up feeder fish, that were once the same living being that you see in the feeder tanks at the LFS. Many people fail to realize that. It all comes full circle. This is a hypocritical argument for meany of us...

 

[DiscusAngel]

ive Always use a variety although my discus' main diet is tetra prime they get live/ frozen bloodworm/brineshrimp and feeder shrimp.

i have a spare 15gal and i have been advised that 2 Short body convicts will be ok. i might try and breed them. i will sell some babies to my lfs' but i cant sell all of them so some will go to my discus. the culls mainly. i dont have a problem with people using feeders to lure there fish to eat but its when a fishes normal diet is a feeder fish i think that fish is probably soo ill its unbelivable.

 

[three-fingers]

However, are they really marvelling at the weakness of the prey, or the abilities of the predator?

I love watching my frogfish eat live shrimp. It is truly a great sight and has to be seen to truly appreciate the speed of the strike, not to mention being able to watch the luring action draw in the prey. I know I should be upset at the plight of the shrimp, but the frogfish is pretty much the pinnacle of aggressive mimicry.

What many people do fail to understand is some people have different values than others. Also, barring the nutritional problems of feeding a goldfish it might not be so bad for it to be ripped apart by a pack of carniverous fish. When swallowed whole, a fish will die of asphyxiation, possibly while digestion commences. This asphyxiation is likely to take longer than a fish which is almost instantly ripped into a number of pieces. While it may look worse, is it really a more stressful death? I am not entirely sure.

Completely agree, and that's one of the reasons I feed things like crickets and brine shrimp. I like to give my fish a varied diet of things similar to what they could encounter in nature. Much simpler than your frog fish example (you've got me wanting a frogfish now too ), I enjoy to watching my yo yo loaches tackling the snails in my tank and my hatchet fish skilfully knock crickets off floating plants into the water. As much as I love keeping shrimp, I'd love to watch my angelfish picking of feeder shrimp from the nooks and crannies in my tank (though I've never seen cheap live feeder shrimp around here).
My fish don't need these things at all, and it's debatable if they would care if I switched them to 100% flake food. The main reason I feed them these foods from time to time is because I enjoy watching it (nutrition doesn't come into it, because I can and do also buy frozen substitutes) .

There is a very fine line between enjoying seeing something die, and enjoying watching a predator in action.

The thing is with most piranha situations - the feeder fish could easily be substituted for a frozen fish - you are still seeing piranhas behave the same as in nature with a dead fish. Frozen fish are cheaper and easier. The difference isn't all that noticeable when feeding either - there's not exactly that much pursuit with the live fish. In the vast vast majority of cases it doesn't take the piranhas any more skill to catch the live fish than the frozen fish. For someone to go out of their way and use feeders, they must get something extra out of it being alive...which I personally think is wrong. If they feel that way about a living fish, then surely they are not suitable candidates for the responsibility of owning an aquarium?

I see your point about asphyxiation...and that is neigh-on impossible to judge in most cases. I hadn't thought about that at all, and was pretty much under the impression that since it looked worse, it was worse for the fish....which thinking now it probably isn't . I still think it's OK with the right intentions and in the right setting though .
Regardless of if there was more pain involved, If you could mimic a real piranha attack on a shoal of fish using feeders, then I feel It would be ok, because while a fish is still being ripped up to pieces, It's not that aspect your interested in.
Unfortunately that's something that's not at all realistic in an aquarium setting.

For those out there that do use feeders on piranhas or similar animals, bear in mind that this is only my opinion .

 

[jarcher1390]

to me all life is valuable i,m no vegetarian but i don't go killing for the fun of it. i think of this hobby as trying to make i as most life like as possible for the fish, if the fish may feed on other fish in the wild, i will happily give it a feeder every month or so, i feel sad when i do but i don't i know its had a good life.

In a summary i would say there nothing wrong about it as long as its not for pleasure of seeing somit die and not done too often.

 

[Meds081603]

I like most of the replies I have seen. Everyone keeping it friendly!!

I am glad to see that the reason most do not do it is simply the fact that they feel "fish are friends not food".

rdd - My culls are deformed fish and runts. The lfs I sell them to does not care about if they are ugly or not, only healthy. They don't care if they are runts either but I don't want to pawn a smaller weaker fish off on someone else. Only the healthiest go to the store.

 

[severum boy]

For 98% of cases, I am against feeders. Most fish will go over to pellets fine. But they have their place. Butterfly fish are a good example. I brought a trio about 6 months ago, and for the first few months, all they ate were crickets. They woudent touch the pellets I put in fot the other fish. One day, one dicided to try a pellet and found it quite tasty. He put on a spurt of growth and is now much bigger than the others who started to take pellets only a couple of months ago. This provides some evidence that pellets are more nutrutional than the average feeder food, something some people dont realise. Now they are all on pellets, I dont use feeders. So yes they have their place with fish that wont eat anthing else.

 

[OohFeeshy]

This provides some evidence that pellets are more nutrutional than the average feeder food, something some people dont realise.

That's a rather misleading conclusion since all you were feeding were crickets, which are well known to be nutritionally defunct. That's why when they are fed to reptiles, they're thoroughly gut loaded and dusted with vitamins.

 

[severum boy]

This provides some evidence that pellets are more nutrutional than the average feeder food, something some people dont realise.

That's a rather misleading conclusion since all you were feeding were crickets, which are well known to be nutritionally defunct. That's why when they are fed to reptiles, they're thoroughly gut loaded and dusted with vitamins.

My point was that some people who use crickets as a live food for their fish say that it is closer to their natural diet and therefore helthier for them, despite staring overwhelming scientific study in the face.

 

[t1tanrush]

This post is not directed at anyone person in particular but is meant to be the beginning of a
civilised discussion of the topic of feeder fish.

I don't understand how anyone who claims to love fish and care for their well being
(after all is that not the most basic reason why we keep fish in the first place) insists on
continually feeding live fish to other fish and also to keep suggesting this practice to other fish keepers.
The life of a guppy or a goldfish is just as meaningful as a bichir or a large mouth bass, well it is to me
and I feel it should be to you to.

Yes there are times that this is a necessity for the well being of the other fish,
I myself have had to do this on a few occasions when they just won't accept anything else.
Most, not all but most, fish that naturally predate on other fish can become accustomed to
commercially prepared foods and live quite a full and healthy life. It may take some amount of work on your part but it can happen.
It is not the case that all piscivores have to have live fish all the time as some would have you believe.

So could those that use feeder fish on a regular basis please explain
why they continue to do so, I really do want to understand.
have all other options been exhausted, have they even been tried or is it just what you were told and know no different?

Well, not everyone loves all fish. I sure don't, I love some, dislike others, don't care about more, yea I use feeders, feeder fish are bred in bulk to feed large fish. What else are we supposed to do with comet goldfish and rosy reds? They aren't very intresting fish, goldies need a ton of space and rosys well are basically drab white cloud minnows/tetras. They have little/no appeal in the market except to fairs and as food (with the exception of people with ponds). I use live feeders, watching my frog ambush a goldfish or my snake catch them is interesting to watch, the snake actually gets to do what its programed to do- hunt. Sure most fish can be put on prepared food, but does that mean it should? Do you only eat prepared food? I mean seriously how many fish in the wild hunt wardleys cichlid pellets? none! Its taking a fish thats meant to eat other fish/insects and using it to eat pellets, the fish just never looks complete without live feeders. Like part of its life is missing. A lot of interesting things are missed by not feeding live. Sure it may not be fair for the feeders but life isn't fair. We can't all go into the world and start feeding wild fish with only pellets why in the fish hobby ? Why do we have the right to take away the animals basic instinct to hunt other fish?

I think most people here have an issue with feeders because. of the hobbywe all share... fish keeping. We like to keep happy healthy fish.
So to buy or breed fish and then send them to there certain death, just seems unnatural to some people. However i know that when i kept angels i wanted them to spawn and tried everything large water changes with lots of blood worm ect. lowering the ph, the one thing that worked was when i added some pregnant female mollies, they gave birth and then my angels gobbled up the babies and spawned. so they obviously fount something to there liking in eating another fish, and when we get a bigger house and i decide to breed things again i may well keep some guppys and when it comes to kulling the fry, thats what an oscar does best

I like to keep healthy fish sure, send them to certain death- unnatural? I don't understand how anyone can say that... Fish NATURALLY hunt other fish. Sure its not fair for the fish bred to die, but I mean, then we just remove all fish completely from their diet? Why is that fair? I also love the " omg the fish don't have a chance to escape ". So predators should have NO fish? Besides lets say in the course of its life a wild fish eats 300 other fish and others get away. Why don't we just feed the 300 feeders and say they are the ones that didn't get away? That argument makes no sense to me and god I heard it too many times if anyone wants to bring that one up..

For 98% of cases, I am against feeders. Most fish will go over to pellets fine. But they have their place. Butterfly fish are a good example. I brought a trio about 6 months ago, and for the first few months, all they ate were crickets. They woudent touch the pellets I put in fot the other fish. One day, one dicided to try a pellet and found it quite tasty. He put on a spurt of growth and is now much bigger than the others who started to take pellets only a couple of months ago. This provides some evidence that pellets are more nutrutional than the average feeder food, something some people dont realise. Now they are all on pellets, I dont use feeders. So yes they have their place with fish that wont eat anthing else.

They may go over to pellets fine and it may be more " nutricious " but It's not normal food, its processed ground up fish. I'd rather have a slower growing fish thats eating something it would normally eat then a fish picking pellets.. Watching a fish eat pellets = boring, waste of time. Watching them eat live fish = interesting. Seriously throw away your pellets and get good live feeders !

 

[The-Wolf]

What else are we supposed to do with comet goldfish? They aren't very intresting fish

erm put them in ponds where they belong and where they were bred for viewing from.
they are not interesting to you]

, goldies need a ton of space and rosys well are basically drab white cloud minnows/tetras. They have little/no appeal in the market except to fairs and as food (with the exception of people with ponds)

I think the millions of goldfish keepers will debate that point.

Do you only eat prepared food?

yes, seeing as I don't go out and hunt for my own food, unless you count going to a supermarket as hunting.
every piece of food you eat is prepared in some way. you don't pull a potato out the ground and eat it raw and with dirt on it do you.
no you prepare it in some way.

? Why do we have the right to take away the animals basic instinct to hunt other fish?

that is a fair point, however how many people actually give the fish their own natural diet?
there are no goldfish or guppies in the Amazon so why feed Piranhas such fish?

I'll leave the other people you quoted to comment on those parts

 

[t1tanrush]

What else are we supposed to do with comet goldfish? They aren't very intresting fish

erm put them in ponds where they belong and where they were bred for viewing from.
they are not interesting to you]
Hate to tell you, but a large portion of fish keepers, especially those of larger predators, dislike goldfish... There aren't enough ponds to cope with these fish, they have already made their way into ponds where they aren't supposed to be, and they breed like mad. You cant save every fish by finding a new pond. What about the fish in the other pond thats pushed out and killed by the invasion of a fish they have never seen? If they don't survive and get eaten, aren't they feeder fish all over again?

, goldies need a ton of space and rosys well are basically drab white cloud minnows/tetras. They have little/no appeal in the market except to fairs and as food (with the exception of people with ponds)

I think the millions of goldfish keepers will debate that point.
There are some good goldfish keepers out there yes, however comet goldfish require ponds. I'm pretty sure most goldy keepers keep fancy goldfish and don't go buying comets (I've seen exceptions).

Do you only eat prepared food?

yes, seeing as I don't go out and hunt for my own food, unless you count going to a supermarket as hunting.
every piece of food you eat is prepared in some way. you don't pull a potato out the ground and eat it raw and with dirt on it do you.
no you prepare it in some way.
No but we eat fruits fresh from the tree and vegies from the garden. ;;

? Why do we have the right to take away the animals basic instinct to hunt other fish?

that is a fair point, however how many people actually give the fish their own natural diet?
there are no goldfish or guppies in the Amazon so why feed Piranhas such fish?
Well, in the wild a fish eats a smaller fish. Since we can not replicate the exact fish, what should we do? Skip the fish completely and give it something COMPLETELY different then what it would normally find, or give it something CLOSE to what it would normally find?
I'll leave the other people you quoted to comment on those parts.