Feeder Fish

[The-Wolf]

This post is not directed at anyone person in particular but is meant to be the beginning of a
civilised discussion of the topic of feeder fish.

I don't understand how anyone who claims to love fish and care for their well being
(after all is that not the most basic reason why we keep fish in the first place) insists on
continually feeding live fish to other fish and also to keep suggesting this practice to other fish keepers.
The life of a guppy or a goldfish is just as meaningful as a bichir or a large mouth bass, well it is to me
and I feel it should be to you to.

Yes there are times that this is a necessity for the well being of the other fish,
I myself have had to do this on a few occasions when they just won't accept anything else.
Most, not all but most, fish that naturally predate on other fish can become accustomed to
commercially prepared foods and live quite a full and healthy life. It may take some amount of work on your part but it can happen.
It is not the case that all piscivores have to have live fish all the time as some would have you believe.

So could those that use feeder fish on a regular basis please explain
why they continue to do so, I really do want to understand.
have all other options been exhausted, have they even been tried or is it just what you were told and know no different?

 

[CruX]

The only live feeder fish I have witnessed happen is when my mother bought a second hand tank that came with a breeding pair of cichlids, she didn't want them but no one would take them. The tank soon became over run with fry, no LFS would take them and she had given fry away to everyone. In the end after discussion she decided the best solution was to move the remaining fry in with the walking catfish and the parents with them. A couple of the fry survived to adult hood and she eventually got rid of the cichlids to a dedicated cichlid breeder and the mis sold walking cats to a decent home too. It was a difficult choice and I can see why they agonised over it but I reckon all the fry would have died on thold tank anyway as well as all the other fish as there would have been massive overcrowding.

 

[PoPoV]

This old nut shell again huh? This could get nasty! I personally dont use them. Except when I had my needle nose gar, but they wouldnt eat anything else! The only reason im against feeders is all the diseases! And also their is no real nutritional value in them. But that is when breeding and gut loading come into play. Sometimes it can be justified as population control. Their are 20 zillion sides to the argument as im shure you will see

 

[DarkEntity]

I wouldnt do it either, there is no need these days, there are so many alternatives. Prawns, white bait, sprats, bloodworm, tubifex, meal worms, wax worms to name a few....

Its just lazy to use feeders imo, you throw them in and forget about them...no need to actually take an interest in the feeding of the fish.

 

[Meds081603]

I keep feeder guppies for several of my fish and for a couple friends. They only get them every other week or so. Raising fish to feed other fish is no different than raising chickens, cows, fish, etc for human consumption. Humans do not HAVE to eat animals yet I bet most of those who say feeders are wrong also eat meat. So why is it ok for humans but not fish? How many times have I heard someone go on a rant about feeder fish yet they give their fish crickets, shrimp, meal worms etc. How is the life of an insect or invertabrate any less precious than a fish? I would also assume that they do not read ingredient lists on fish food. Most have what in them? FISH, hmmmm so even if the fish is not being swallowed whole by a predator fish than it gets ground up in a grinder and made into a flake? I'd personally rather be swallowed whole than put through a grinder.

I am quite happy to sit down to a good steak dinner. It makes me happy and ultimately healthy. There is nothing my cats like more than catching a bug or mouse or frog and promptly devouring it. My lab loves to dig for moles which he quickly gulps down. My pets get top of the line food and a good variety. The only posible reason for them to eat these things is they enjoy the hunt and they enjoy eating things they have caught. Why would you think fish are any different?

I am not going to give a main diet of feeders or give them to fish who would not eat feeders. It is my belief that if a fish eats other fish in nature, it would be cruel for me to NOT give them feeders. It just seems to me that they are happier when they get live food on occasion.My guppies are also fed top quality foods and many of them do make it into tanks or the lfs. Typically its culls that my fish get but if I don't have enough culls and my boys want live treats I will give them older adults.

Thats my 2 cents on the matter.

I wouldnt do it either, there is no need these days, there are so many alternatives. Prawns, white bait, sprats, bloodworm, tubifex, meal worms, wax worms to name a few....

Its just lazy to use feeders imo, you throw them in and forget about them...no need to actually take an interest in the feeding of the fish.

How is using feeders lazy? It's no different than any other fish food. A person who throws feeders in and forgets them is most likely just throwing flakes in and forgetting them too. We don't keep fish to just throw food in their tanks and forget about it.

 

[merry78]

I couldn't feed live fish to other fish to save my life, it just seems wrong to me. But, i am not trying to judge others, and i am not a vegetarian, so i guess i am just irrational.
I think if i bought feeders i would end up setting up a tank for them and keeping them!

 

[Robotochan]

I would never feed a live fish to another, it just my opinion but I believe it to be cruel and put it in the same group as putting live animals in a lion's cage. And I know about the "why are prawn/shrimp/bloodworm any less important than a fish" and my answer is because that's what I believe. It's not something I would enjoy watching, it may just be me but watching animals die is not my hobby.

 

[andywg]

Many people do not want to feed live fish but will feed lance fish. Consider how most commercially caught fish die: asphyxiation from being out of the water, possibly while freezing at the same time. Is that any more humane than being predated (especially if the predation is swift).

As mentioned above, almost all flake and pellet food contains fish, and, unlike most mammals butchered for human consumption, there is not all that much of a humane slaughter process for aquatic animals.

I prefer not to feed feeder fish, but that is because I am too lazy to try and keep a controlled breeding program, that and even brackish fish like mollies contain the wrong fat and nutritional make up for feeding to my SW preds.

Consider my frogfish. They use the lure to attract the feeder fish. The feeder thinks it is getting a free lunch of worms, or a smaller fish, and so voluntariyl approaches the frogfish. When the frog strikes it is around 0.006 (6 thousandths) seconds between starting to go and engulfing the prey. The feeder doesn't know what has happened.

The strike is so swift the frog can take a fish from a shoal or school without the rest of the aggregation even realising. Surely this is not a hugely traumatic experience (except on my wallet from buying SW feeders)?

 

[rdd1952]

Personally, I can see both sides of the topic. I don't think I could feed fish to other fish in my tanks but I have used minnows and live shrimp to catch fish so in essence, I guess that's the same thing. I just don't have to see them get eaten. I know I couldn't breed fish as feeders. Once I had bred them, they'd be "family" at that point in time. I do understand why someone would do that though as it insures better quality and disease free feeders for their fish.

How fish eat other fish would be another issue to me. If they swallow them whole, that's one thing. You don't really have to see them suffer. Ripping them apart is totally different. I was at a LFS a year or so ago and the had put small feeder goldfish in a SW puffer tank. I didn't see him actually put in the tank and he may hae already been dead for all I know but in any case, he puffer had taken a big bite out of him so there were innards showing and it was pretty gross.

While I do agree that raising cows, chickens, etc., for human consumption is somewhat similar to raising feeder fish, I think it is really much more like feeding your fish flakes. Why? When we eat a steak, we aren't facing the whole cow. We're only getting a piece of it that has been cut and prepared just as fish flakes or pellets are prepared for the fish. The fish doesn't have to do anything except eat, just like us (well, we do have to cook it). The biggest similarity is when you live on a farm where you raise chickens and when you want chicken for dinner, you simply go out, catch one and kill it. Personally, I do eat meat so I guess I'm glad "feeders" are raised for me. I'm also glad that I dont have to face them live and whole though.

 

[BigIan]

I think most people here have an issue with feeders because. of the hobbywe all share... fish keeping. We like to keep happy healthy fish.
So to buy or breed fish and then send them to there certain death, just seems unnatural to some people. However i know that when i kept angels i wanted them to spawn and tried everything large water changes with lots of blood worm ect. lowering the ph, the one thing that worked was when i added some pregnant female mollies, they gave birth and then my angels gobbled up the babies and spawned. so they obviously fount something to there liking in eating another fish, and when we get a bigger house and i decide to breed things again i may well keep some guppys and when it comes to kulling the fry, thats what an oscar does best

 

[The-Wolf]

Meds081603 you have mentioned culls and that is a fair point. what would we do with all these unwanted fry otherwise.

andywg, (glad you joined in).
I see that in the case of frogfish, and others that use lures, that comercialy produced foods will not be sufficient and that the use of feeders is
not only warranted but essential for the health of the fish. I get it 100% and I admire your commitment on keeping such a fish, I certainly couldn't given its diet. yes I do realise that is the way of nature but as they say, out of sight out of mind.

please continue this discussion, it is very interesting to say the least and I've already had my mind opened further to this difficult subject.

 

[rdd1952]

Typically its culls that my fish get but if I don't have enough culls and my boys want live treats I will give them older adults.

I guess this is off topic a bit but, having never raised guppies (or any other fish for that matter), I'm just curious as to how you decide which ones are culls. Maybe my definition of a cull is different from the connotation here since I worked in the brick business for several years and a cull to us was a brick (or run of brick) that was inferior and could not be sold as a quality product. Is it the same for fish and what are the criteria: bad color, poor shape, etc.?

 

[OohFeeshy]

I'm already debating this elsewhere (which is like banging my head against the wall), so I might as well quote other bits. I don't really have a standpoint, on the other thread I'm leaning towards pro not because I support it, but because others are quick to take the moral highground without understanding both the actualities of responsibly feeding live fish (as opposed to the YouTube video style bits) and the ethical issues associated with prepared foods.

So you're not happy for a fish who has been well raised, kept and fed to die quickly because it 'can't get away' (which isn't true, there's always room to swim away and places to hide if the fish twigs it's being stalked, which often is doesn't until it's already dead), but you're pefectly happy for thousands of fish to be dredged up from the bottom of the sea, often killing species not intended to be caught, which then suffer from problems due to decompression and suffocation if they're not gutted alive?

It's like comparing the meat produced from Gordon Ramsey's livestock (which he raises and witnesses the slaughter) to an Asda's own brand economy burger. The animal still dies, but in the first situation it's had the best life possible and a very quick death, whereas you have no idea what goes into the second and you can bet that it was a heck of a lot worse on the animals involved.

I would personally say that if you can't face the fact that fish eat fish, and you should be able to provide it whatever the form (like if you don't like the idea of snakes eating mice then evidently snake keeping isn't for you). Distancing yourself from it doesn't make you any more moral, in fact it is very much the opposite.

Wolf, 'out of sight out of mind' is possibly the worst arguement.

Edit-

I'm just curious as to how you decide which ones are culls.

It tends to vary from breeder to breeder depending on type of fish and market- for some it's just those who will never lead a 'proper' life through deformity and such, for others it can be a much more extreme selection of any that aren't the desired colours or sizes.

 

[andywg]

andywg, (glad you joined in).
I see that in the case of frogfish, and others that use lures, that comercialy produced foods will not be sufficient and that the use of feeders is
not only warranted but essential for the health of the fish. I get it 100% and I admire your commitment on keeping such a fish, I certainly couldn't given its diet. yes I do realise that is the way of nature but as they say, out of sight out of mind.

They do not always need feeders.

My first frogfish (an Antennarius striatus) would eat almost anything presented on a feeding stick to him (from prawn, and mussel to freeze dried flake-like shrimp).

However, I have had little luck with other frogfish in tempting them onto dead food (though I am trying).

One thing often forgotten in these debates is the use of live inverts. I tend to use feeder shrimp instead of fish as these show almost no recognition of the danger the large fish nearby herald. Obviously (if used as a main food source) these need gut loading as on their own they are of little nutritional value. I prefer to use them as a stop gap to ensure the pred is feeding before offering dead food again.

As an aside, I also keep a white ribbon moray eel (Pseudechidna nebulosa) which is noted as one of the hardest animals to get feeding in the aquarium, especially onto dead food. The specimin I have refuses live food (including feeder shrimp that are a perfect bite size for it) and will only take shrimp off of the feeding stick.

As CFC has commented before, there are less than 1% of species that cannot be weaned onto frozen or dead food. Having frozen food usually means UV processed food with far less chance of contamination from the food source.

This is an interesting debate however, glad it has got this far with no flaming.

 

[rdd1952]

I'm just curious as to how you decide which ones are culls.

It tends to vary from breeder to breeder depending on type of fish and market- for some it's just those who will never lead a 'proper' life through deformity and such, for others it can be a much more extreme selection of any that aren't the desired colours or sizes.

Pretty much what I thought. Basically just up to the breeder.