Experienced Fw With Questions About Sw

[gregswimm]

I have been keeping FW fish for about 5 years now and am starting to get very interested in SW. If I do start a SW tank it would be in a 29 or 20L(for ease of lighting), I'm cheep and would rather not have to buy new equipment, is a HOB sufficient for filtration? I know sumps are good for added volume and somewhere to hide all the equipment, but if I stay away from hard coral and keep the fish load tiny to nonexistent do I really need a skimmer/calcium reactor?

I also live within 30min of Tampa bay, I read that some of the live rock that comes out of there is fantastic (http/tbsaltwater.com/), would it be a good idea to collect my own? What should I look for when collecting LR (I'm all for hitch-hikers). The rock would most likely come from shallow waters and wave breakers and such (nothing I can't stand it up to my knees) and most likely nothing larger than my fist. Does the LR go in a cycled or un-cycled tank?

Are T8s sufficient for lighting (I do have a 400w MH but I would rather not use it on a 29)? I still have no idea what I would put in there, but nothing 'extreme' maybe some xenia or zoas but mostly inverts; I'm not that interested in the SW fish.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated

 

[Donya]

No collecting rocks off beaches! It's illegal in most parts of the US, including Florida. If the cost of buying new aquacultured rock is the issue, look for rock from a local tank break-down.

If I do start a SW tank it would be in a 29 or 20L(for ease of lighting)

I hope 20L = 20 "long" and not 20 liters! 20 liters is really small for a first marine tank.

is a HOB sufficient for filtration?

Live rock provides the bulk of the biological filtration. An HOB will provide water movement and a place to stick chemical media if you want. However, most HOBs don't provide nearly enough water movement and also very little side-to-side water movement, so you would still need a powerhead or two.

Does the LR go in a cycled or un-cycled tank?

You need the rock to cycle the tank, or mini-cycle it if the rock is good quality and doesn't suffer much die-off from transport.

I know sumps are good for added volume and somewhere to hide all the equipment, but if I stay away from hard coral and keep the fish load tiny to nonexistent do I really need a skimmer/calcium reactor?

You can do marine tanks sump-less, skimmer-less, and reactor-less. It all depends on what you want to keep. You definitely don't need a calcium reactor to get started and many people never use one even on reef tanks. Good skimmers increase the stock limit substantially, as do sumps. On nano tanks, skimmers are also often ignored in favor of more frequent or larger water changes. It really depends on how many critters you want (mostly for fish; inverts are usually low-impact on filtration).

Are T8s sufficient for lighting (I do have a 400w MH but I would rather not use it on a 29)?

T8s are ok if you aren't going for much in the way of photosynthetic stuff. You might be able to get away with a few soft corals but won't see much growth and may see some shrink back, as it can be hit and miss with low lighting. If you can spring for some LEDs (doesn't have to be crazy - for example, I'm growing several softies with a Marineland double-bright) or a 2-bulb T5 it would open up your options a lot more than with just one or two T8s. Definitely skip on the 400W MH unless you want to cook things. Fluorescents and LEDs are much better for heat, which is worth considering in a warm part of the world.

 

[gregswimm]

Ya 20L=20 long lol.

My uncle has property on the bay; how do you tell someone they cannot collect out of their backyard. Sorry I'm not trying to be pedantic, I'm just trying to understand what I'm looking for when choosing quality LR (be it from a petstore or tank breakdown); what am I trying to avoid and what should I be looking for. Are the rules for rock the same as FW, such as no rock with metals and crytals etc.?

For lighting would 2 105W CFLs work or a few large 'spot light' LED bulbs?

Also, what inverts/coral should I avoid? I want to avoid costly/complicated filtration systems. The water movement should be fluctuating in direction not flowing one way correct?

 

[Donya]

For lighting would 2 105W CFLs work or a few large 'spot light' LED bulbs?

I don't know much about CFLs specifically but that sounds like it would be fine for corals. Just make sure to get marine bulbs. For LEDs, as an example, the double-bright I've got over a 20gal long has 8 white bulbs (1W) and 4 blues (0.6W). The next step up of the same size fixtures intended to support more demanding corals has about twice that count.

Also, what inverts/coral should I avoid?

It's a lot easier to just come up with a target list and then go from there trying to substitute things where appropriate, etc. There is too much stuff particularly on the random inverts side of things. Have a look at some other peoples' builds in the journals section and/or around the web in general and see what looks good to you. For coral categories, generally a lot of SPS are more demanding for light, but so are some LPS. Most of the common beginner softies are undemanding and do better with nutrient-rich watter (whereas a lot of SPS systems are skimmed pretty heavily).

The water movement should be fluctuating in direction not flowing one way correct?

That's sort of the fancy case. What you want to avoid is really strong linear flow that would knock stuff over in front of the pump but leave lots of dead zones on the other side of the rock. That's why most people go for more than one powerhead. If you want changing, wave-like motion, the cheapest method is probably with a rotating pump, but they do have to be cleaned regularly to keep them moving nicely.

My uncle has property on the bay; how do you tell someone they cannot collect out of their backyard. Sorry I'm not trying to be pedantic, I'm just trying to understand what I'm looking for when choosing quality LR (be it from a petstore or tank breakdown); what am I trying to avoid and what should I be looking for. Are the rules for rock the same as FW, such as no rock with metals and crytals etc.?

My understanding is that the laws regarding live rock and marine livestock collection don't change on private property as is the case for other laws prohibiting or restricting wildlife possession (e.g. I can't just go grab a raccoon because it wandered into my backyard). I can't offer advice on how to do something that's illegal.

Really, you will be better off to go get some rock from a tank breakdown. It will be the right type of rock (which requires some knowledge of mineralogy even if you're going to go get unusual varieties of dry rock legally) and will have the benefit that most, if not all undesirable hitchhikers will have been ferreted out of it already. An awful lot of the invertebrates that exist right in tidal zones (and which would be living in those rocks...) are not suitable for the average community or reef tank anyway.

 

[gregswimm]

So you use both 10,000K and 20,000K or are the warmer 3500K-6500K useful also. And it seems like it is more important to have more astintic lighting, is this correct? How do you keep from having wicked algae problems with so much light over a tank?

 

[Donya]

You'll probably want 50/50 for a white/actinic ratio. Usually it's 10,000K for white bulbs; some people go bluer, but as you go bluer it can take on a deep water look. For actinics, most of those don't have a K rating on them and just say "actinic" and list something like a 420nm peak. Redder is only really useful if you want to grow certain types of algae in large quantities (a lot of pesky types, but also some desirable macroalgaes grow well under it).

How do you keep from having wicked algae problems with so much light over a tank?

Snails! And other grazing inverts of course. You will get algae, and lots of it, but that's a good thing when it's encrusting algae and growing on the rocks, since it helps with nutrient export. It does need to be controlled though. Sea urchins are my grazing critter addiction of choice right now and mow down the stuff like nobody's business, but they also require a tank that's matured for a few months. Typically some number of Turbinid snail species are employeed for new tanks to munch down the algae as it starts to show up, and then the grazers can be diversified later as the tank develops.

 

[gregswimm]

So how much light are we talking about when people refer to high light medium light and low light? I'm trying to find a nice inexpensive used filter that will have a decent amount of clearance over the tank. Also, what is a good type of prepackaged salt; I tried some instant ocean but it does not dissolve very well.

 

[Donya]

So how much light are we talking about when people refer to high light medium light and low light?

These are really vague things that can mean pretty different things depending on who's using the terms. Often low-light means two T5 tubes will do the trick. High can mean anything from 4 high-output tubes to a bajillion LEDs to the types of super-wattage that only MH can put out. Obviously medium can then mean anything in-between, which is a pretty big range. If you have specific corals in mind it would be easier to just look at their requirements for planning purposes.

I'm trying to find a nice inexpensive used filter that will have a decent amount of clearance over the tank.

Not sure what you mean. Do you mean hang-on filters? If not, can you link to a picture of the sort of equipment you're talking about?

Also, what is a good type of prepackaged salt; I tried some instant ocean but it does not dissolve very well.

Instant Ocean is what I use and the only one I've ever used, so I can't help much with other recommendations. No salt dissolves straight away really; it takes a powerhead or strong air bubbler to mix it over a few hours. If it has fully mixed but you get snow-like deposits at the bottom, then test the KH of the mixture and of the freshwater you're using, since it means too many carbonates are coming from someplace (a big problem with tap water in many areas). Usually the problem is with the freshwater source, but it's not impossible to run across a bucket that has abnormal proportions of the constituents.

 

[lljdma06]

You live here... And I think, the owner allows for pickups. Nice guy, we've exchanged emails a year ago.

http/tbsaltwater.com/

You might want to see if you can schedule a pick up of any LR you do order. Tampa is actually one of the most active Marine reefing hubs in the country. If you don't want to get LR from a vendor, I'm sure, as Donya says, you can find some quality, quality stuff from a tank break down there.

 

[gregswimm]

You live here... And I think, the owner allows for pickups. Nice guy, we've exchanged emails a year ago.

http/tbsaltwater.com/

You might want to see if you can schedule a pick up of any LR you do order. Tampa is actually one of the most active Marine reefing hubs in the country. If you don't want to get LR from a vendor, I'm sure, as Donya says, you can find some quality, quality stuff from a tank break down there.

Ya, the more I look the more I find lol. I have 2 LFSs within a 20 min drive of my house that have cured LR. There is also this guy who sells gulf of mexico LR for $5 per lbs. Would it be a good idea to got my LR from as many different sources as possible for bio diversity?



Dona- I know I said filter with tank clearance, I was half asleep lol; I meant light .

For my filtration I am using 2 large HOBs and a HOB refugium that I have already DIYed a skimmer for

As far as the coral goes, I really like zoanthids but I am worried about their toxins . I am also a fan of star polyps, but not to sure if i will include them because of the aggressiveness of their growth. Sarcophyton have also caught my eye, still need to do more reading on them. A LFS by me has been 'givng away' xenia :3

 

[Donya]

Dona- I know I said filter with tank clearance, I was half asleep lol; I meant light

Ah ok! Well, clearance usually isn't an issue when you get a nice fixture. Many come with legs that set them up off the top of the tank. I have a deep blue 4-bulb T5HO (I forget the name...solarsomething) with those legs, but there are many brands that have them. Usually it is bulkier fixtures that have them though, 4-bulb and bigger. I haven't seen that many 2-bulb guys that have stilts on them since they are usually meant to sit back a bit to leave room, but I have seen pictures so they can be found. I can't remember any models off the top of my head though. A lot of fixtures are also meant to be suspended and leave it up to you to get it rigged up (common for LEDs and MH). Your best bet is to just start browsing on sites that have a big lighting inventory. Lighting is an area of with major option overload.

As far as the coral goes, I really like zoanthids but I am worried about their toxins

Well if you like to lick corals then do skip on those. Otherwise I'm sure you'll be fine lol. You have to be rather careless to be at risk from the whole palytoxin thing, such as:
- not washing your hands after rummaging around in a bunch of polyps.
- getting open wounds in the tank (solution: gloves when doing anything that could cut you or when you have cuts already).

Also, you KNOW when you've been softie slimed by them; that stuff stinks and it feels like someone sneezed on your hand when you take it out of the water. If that happens, you just wash it off. No harm done. Their main hazard is with fragging, since you are likely to cut yourself when handling fragging tools and when you cut zoas out of the water they can squirt, so it can get in eyes and such.

Of course, all that aside, if there are any young kids (not just yours, but also visiting from friends/family) that are likely to be in the vacinity of the tank...kids do have a tendency to not wash hands as much as they should and on the younger ones everything goes in the mouth, so I could definitely see avoiding zoas (and sea slugs, cucumbers, lionfish, etc.) if any unsupervised youngsters could gain access to the tank.

 

[gregswimm]

Any idea how far I can expect zoa sweepers to 'sweep'?

Any idea on the sweepers of mushrooms(especially Ricordea)?

Are leather corals too large for a 29?

And would xenia be compatible with these 3?

Am i even in the right area of corals for starting/compatibility? Maybe ill wait and see what comes on my LR and decide what to get from there.

Also how easy is it to stress cucumbers? I would really rather not have to deal with chemical warfare lol.

 

[Donya]

Zoas and mushrooms don't have sweepers. Mushrooms have digestive fillaments that they can expell a very short distance (no more than about 1/4") when irrtated, such as by poking at them.

Leathers should be fine in a 29 for a long time if gotten small. You can always frag them too if they get too big.

Xenia should be fine with those, but it's not always an easy coral. People tend to either find those corals really easy or really hard. I'm one of the latter unfortunately; never figured out why and there is not much reliable info on causes out there. So much other stuff has thrived that I really have no clue why I've never gotten Xenia to do the same. Plenty of people keep Xenia species with the ones you've listed, so it's worth a try, but just be aware that it can be finicky.

Maybe ill wait and see what comes on my LR and decide what to get from there.

This is the best thing to do. If you get some hitchhiker polyps you like, you will have to plan around them.

Also how easy is it to stress cucumbers? I would really rather not have to deal with chemical warfare lol.

Unfortunately quite easy, particularly for wild-caught ones that may not be totally healthy upon arrival into the trade. Some will expel organs if anything pokes at them out of curiosity and they aren't very hardy animals if they get sick or injured. I had one for a while that was being a good eater (food supply is usually the main issue with them, both filter feeders and sand-sifters), but of all things I eventually lost it to a repertory tract infection that it couldn't kick. Some species are more toxic than others, and some are more likely to deliberately release those toxins than others, but none are totally safe according to the literature I've read. So...just avoid cucumbers if you don't want extra things to worry about, particularly with a first sw tank.

 

[gregswimm]

Stopped by a LFS on my way home today, got some pics of the LR, what do ya think? There were also small anemones growing the tank sorta looked like this thing but the tentacles seemed connected.

Im going by anther store later today to check out their stock.

 

[Donya]

That rock looks kind of boring, but that's pretty standard. Looks live of course, but probably not much interesting biodiviersity-wise. You probably won't see a lot of things like microbrittles, corals, etc. On the plus side though, it's probably a lot less likely to have stuff like mantis shrimp and angry crabs than really juicy pieces of aquacultured rock covered in gorgeous stuff. That's something to watch out for with gulf-cultured rock actually; Neogonodactylus mantis shrimp are really common in some of that stuff. There's a store near me that gets some really excellent quality gulf rock covered in sponges, Tunicates, and other inverts. But, back when I was building up my rock and looking at their stock regularly, I could often see a mantis shrimp or two squirreling around in the new batches when I watched long enough. I found the rock to be most certainly worth it for the biodiversity despite that issue, but because of the risk it's best to give really nice rocks a sort of QT/settling in period where you wait and see what all crawls out in case you need to fish something out of the tank or take a rock back to trade.