Just to be completely on the safe side - when I dose Prime, I try to dose it right in the water flow so it's dispersed into the tank. However, my White Cloud Mountain Minnows often swim right under the top of the water wherever I dose the Prime, and I end up dosing right on top of them sometimes. We're talking dosings of 1.25-1.5ml everyday, although they aren't always swimming under all the drops that go in the tank from the pipette (sometimes I squirt it in, sometimes release the drops more gradually). Will this hurt the fish, or am I just being paranoid?
Dosing Prime On Top Of Fish
- Thread starter Kaidonni
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Not entirely sure if I fully understand what you are saying.
This sounds like you're dosing Prime everyday?
If thats the case, have to say this is not necessary at all, you should only add prime when you're doing a water change really.
Overdosing on Prime can have an effect even though on the bottle of Prime it says up to 5 times dosage is safe but I certanly would not recommend this.
If I have the wrong idea due to how I preceive what you're saying then I apologise in advance.
And one other note, this is Seachem Prime you speak of?
Is your bottle of Prime is like this -
[sharedmedia=core:attachments:75833]
Kaidonni said:
This sounds like you're dosing Prime everyday?
If thats the case, have to say this is not necessary at all, you should only add prime when you're doing a water change really.
Overdosing on Prime can have an effect even though on the bottle of Prime it says up to 5 times dosage is safe but I certanly would not recommend this.
If I have the wrong idea due to how I preceive what you're saying then I apologise in advance.
And one other note, this is Seachem Prime you speak of?
Is your bottle of Prime is like this -
[sharedmedia=core:attachments:75833]
Yes, Seachem Prime. I dose everyday, because I am in need of rehoming a fish unsuitable for the tank (a Clown Loach). I carefully feed every other day, yet I experience minute nitrite spikes (probably 0.01ppm or even less according to the Nutrafin test kit, doesn't register at all on API even though that measures total nitrites which are 3.3 times greater than the results of the Nutrafin nitrite-nitrogen tests), probably also minute ammonia spikes. I'm doing it to be careful, but I could move it to every other day (I only started this in October last year, so went for a very long time without noticing any obvious issues from any ammonia or nitrite without dosing it this often).
Is the tank cycled?
Thought there should not be any Nirtite spike at all really if tank is cycled.
I would suggest you are probably better off doing water changes rather than adding Prime everyday.
Not a question I have seen before, about adding Prime everyday....
Thought there should not be any Nirtite spike at all really if tank is cycled.
I would suggest you are probably better off doing water changes rather than adding Prime everyday.
Not a question I have seen before, about adding Prime everyday....
Tank is fully cycled. I conduct two 10-11 litre water changes per week (~25%), which might be part of the problem (gravel vaccuming on one of the days, filter clean on another, but I still do some gravel vaccuming both days and might be disturbing the bacteria too often). Additional water changes would be far too stressful for the levels I'm seeing if the nutrafin test kit can be trusted; if I relied only on API - which again tests greater for nitrites due to reading total nitrites - I wouldn't even know there was anything there... The Nutrafin test kit starts at 0.1ppm, I can't even compare against that. I also can't trust Nutrafin ammonia tests because those definitely give false positives on ammonia when Prime is present, so I'm entirely reliant on API (still have to read the test soon after the 5 minutes is up - Prime is a reducing agent, so it will reduce the API ammonia test kit chemicals and ruin the test). Another possibility is the Prime could potentially be giving me false positives in the Nutrafin tests, and the tests themselves might not be entirely accurate.
To respond to your initial question, I wouldn't worry if Prime comes into contact with a fish.
But to the more important issue...I agree with Ch4rlie that you should not be using Prime as any sort of problem-solver. Even Seachem caution this. Prime is only intended to condition tap water being added to the tank, not as a treatment to solve problems in the tank. Water changes would be far better, using sufficient conditioner (Prime or whichever) only for the amount of water being changed.
Conditioners add chemicals and TDS (total dissolved solids) and these should be limited to only what is needed for the task. Fish are closely connected to the water they live in; it enters the gills and substances in the water are taken directly into the bloodstream. Water also passes through the cells via osmosis. Internally, the fish has to process all the stuff in the water. It is best to keep this at minimum.
Ammonia from feeding (as mentioned in your other thread) is not going to increase beyond what live plants and bacteria can quickly and easily take up. As for your Nutrafin test results, I would suggest the kit may not be accurate. API kits are fairly reliable, and if those are not expired and show no increases, there likely are none. But you do raise a good point on the reaction of Prime...it is documented that this product will interfere with other agents. Another reason not to be using it beyond the essential.
And by the way, you will still read "ammonia" or "nitrite" when Prime is used. Prime detoxifies ammonia by changing it into the harmless ammonium form, but most test kits (and I would assume Nutrafin too) read both ammonia and ammonium as "ammonia." Prime somehow binds nitrite to make it non-toxic, but here too test kits will still register the "nitrite," and after 24-36 hours when Prime loses its effectiveness, nitrite will revert back to being toxic. [Ammonium does not change back.] Another reason to rely on water changes rather than chemical solutions.
Byron.
But to the more important issue...I agree with Ch4rlie that you should not be using Prime as any sort of problem-solver. Even Seachem caution this. Prime is only intended to condition tap water being added to the tank, not as a treatment to solve problems in the tank. Water changes would be far better, using sufficient conditioner (Prime or whichever) only for the amount of water being changed.
Conditioners add chemicals and TDS (total dissolved solids) and these should be limited to only what is needed for the task. Fish are closely connected to the water they live in; it enters the gills and substances in the water are taken directly into the bloodstream. Water also passes through the cells via osmosis. Internally, the fish has to process all the stuff in the water. It is best to keep this at minimum.
Ammonia from feeding (as mentioned in your other thread) is not going to increase beyond what live plants and bacteria can quickly and easily take up. As for your Nutrafin test results, I would suggest the kit may not be accurate. API kits are fairly reliable, and if those are not expired and show no increases, there likely are none. But you do raise a good point on the reaction of Prime...it is documented that this product will interfere with other agents. Another reason not to be using it beyond the essential.
And by the way, you will still read "ammonia" or "nitrite" when Prime is used. Prime detoxifies ammonia by changing it into the harmless ammonium form, but most test kits (and I would assume Nutrafin too) read both ammonia and ammonium as "ammonia." Prime somehow binds nitrite to make it non-toxic, but here too test kits will still register the "nitrite," and after 24-36 hours when Prime loses its effectiveness, nitrite will revert back to being toxic. [Ammonium does not change back.] Another reason to rely on water changes rather than chemical solutions.
Byron.
RobRocksFishTank
Moved On
Personally I think the water changes are too much. You probably are doing so many to try to combat this situation. If you are fighting water conditions, just do water changes, keep gravel and filter cleanings to a normal schedule.
I'm afraid you may also be making the situation you are trying to fix, worse, as you suggested, by disturbing the bacteria. Cut way back on gravel vacuuming. Your filter cleaning frequency should be much less, unless you are getting clogging.
I'm afraid you may also be making the situation you are trying to fix, worse, as you suggested, by disturbing the bacteria. Cut way back on gravel vacuuming. Your filter cleaning frequency should be much less, unless you are getting clogging.
TwoTankAmin
Fish Connoisseur
You can never do many water changes as long as they do not alter tank parameters significantly. The only potential danger is they are disruptive in terms of the fish when they are done by dropping water levels and scaring the fish. But there are ways to prevent this.
I will bet you 100 to 1 that your test kit cannot measure accurately nitrite changes at a level of .01 ppm. And to think an API kit can read the .044 ppm change in total ions either is absurd. No hobby kit has the capability. But of you want one that does figure you may need to spend in the $1,000s for this.
Adding Prime daily is definitely doing more harm than good.
There is almost never any need to use anything besides chloride for nitrite issues. Plain old salt is about 2/3 chloride.
I will bet you 100 to 1 that your test kit cannot measure accurately nitrite changes at a level of .01 ppm. And to think an API kit can read the .044 ppm change in total ions either is absurd. No hobby kit has the capability. But of you want one that does figure you may need to spend in the $1,000s for this.
Adding Prime daily is definitely doing more harm than good.
There is almost never any need to use anything besides chloride for nitrite issues. Plain old salt is about 2/3 chloride.
Well, I haven't dosed Prime today, I'm testing again tomorrow prior to feeding, and then cleaning on Wednesday and possibly testing again. For the levels I've seen on the Nutrafin test (if it can be trusted), I'm not going to be cleaning every day or every other day, it'll be far too stressful on the Clown Loach who is stressed enough as it is, and I worry that much already that testing and looking things up on the internet takes up a lot of my free time when I'm not at work. Adding even more cleans in every week and my OCD is never going to get any better, it's already exhausting me and I'm avoiding doing certain things with my free time in case I'm neglecting the fish (I do the guilt tripping a lot). I'm going over-board with the testing, but if I don't do it almost every day now, I'm 'neglecting' the fish - I need to check and double-check, to compare and to make absolutely certain. One reason I really hope someone can step forward and help with the rehoming, it just cannot go on like this...
I never did this many tests earlier in the year, I was doing 9-10L changes twice a week, and never noticed any adverse effects (without dosing Prime except in the new water which I left to stand for 24 hours as I always have done). I did however clean the filter once a week and only removed the middle polyester pad every other week (rotating it so both ends were used for a week); the foam pads are the long-term pads and last for years at a stretch before anyone worries that I've been replacing the wrong filter media.
As for the API kits and measuring total nitrites and nitrates - probably far more useful at higher levels. I know the nitrates one is, but it's almost impossible to read and very fiddly to get right.
I've also ordered a new impeller (I've used the current one for 5 1/2 years almost - now realised not a good idea), maybe the old one might be causing issues. Also, how often should the air inducer on a Fluval filter - or any filter - be changed? I'm loath to touch that because from some images online, I'm thinking I'll end up breaking the top of the filter and any issues with the impeller will be the least of my concerns.
I never did this many tests earlier in the year, I was doing 9-10L changes twice a week, and never noticed any adverse effects (without dosing Prime except in the new water which I left to stand for 24 hours as I always have done). I did however clean the filter once a week and only removed the middle polyester pad every other week (rotating it so both ends were used for a week); the foam pads are the long-term pads and last for years at a stretch before anyone worries that I've been replacing the wrong filter media.
As for the API kits and measuring total nitrites and nitrates - probably far more useful at higher levels. I know the nitrates one is, but it's almost impossible to read and very fiddly to get right.
I've also ordered a new impeller (I've used the current one for 5 1/2 years almost - now realised not a good idea), maybe the old one might be causing issues. Also, how often should the air inducer on a Fluval filter - or any filter - be changed? I'm loath to touch that because from some images online, I'm thinking I'll end up breaking the top of the filter and any issues with the impeller will be the least of my concerns.
TwoTankAmin
Fish Connoisseur
I seem to post this one a lot 
/www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/Prime.html
And here is SeaChem's take on science
It is easy to locate science on how ammonia can be be detoxified. I have been unable to find anything on detoxifying nitrite in a similar fashion. Considering how deadly nitrite can be to fish, it would seem logical that the industries involved with fish culturing and keeping would have come up with such a product for detoxifying nitrite long ago if they could have. What they have come up with is the use of chloride to block the nitrite until the cause is eliminated. The usual method for controlling nitrite in closed aquatic systems is bacteria.
from http
/www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/Prime.htmlAnd here is SeaChem's take on science
from the same page as above.
It is easy to locate science on how ammonia can be be detoxified. I have been unable to find anything on detoxifying nitrite in a similar fashion. Considering how deadly nitrite can be to fish, it would seem logical that the industries involved with fish culturing and keeping would have come up with such a product for detoxifying nitrite long ago if they could have. What they have come up with is the use of chloride to block the nitrite until the cause is eliminated. The usual method for controlling nitrite in closed aquatic systems is bacteria.
So, in a 45-50L tank, how much salt (not table salt, I know that!
) would be necessary for those very minute nitrite levels my Nutrafin kit insists are there? And would that level of salt be safe for a Clown Loach and White Cloud Mountain Minnows? I had an old bag of aquarium salts that I threw out because I didn't think it was wise to use with scaleless fish such as Clown Loaches. I say minute because I really cannot figure out where they'd come on the scale, it is certainly nowhere near 0.1ppm. That said, I'm not sure if the tests even look off-colour because they are so faint. Only comparing with untested tap water can I sometimes tell there's anything there, otherwise I rely on the refraction ring at the top of the water sample.
I haven't dosed Prime today in case there is anything else in it that has built up over time to cause issues with the test kits. I have not had issues with testing tap water, but then there might be things in the tank water not in the tap water. I won't be touching the filter at all tomorrow, nor the gravel. I'll replace the polyester pad at the two week mark (Saturday or Sunday), but not mess with the rest of the filter as much as I'd normally do.
Each time I clean the tank I try to remove as much muck as possible, but maybe I'm over-doing it. Only time will tell.
I haven't dosed Prime today in case there is anything else in it that has built up over time to cause issues with the test kits. I have not had issues with testing tap water, but then there might be things in the tank water not in the tap water. I won't be touching the filter at all tomorrow, nor the gravel. I'll replace the polyester pad at the two week mark (Saturday or Sunday), but not mess with the rest of the filter as much as I'd normally do.
Each time I clean the tank I try to remove as much muck as possible, but maybe I'm over-doing it. Only time will tell.
My first suggestion is to forget the nitrite issue. I think both TTA and I are thinking there is no nitrite to worry about (he will say different if so). We have suggested possible reasons for faulty readings, but even aside from this the level is so minute as to be unreliable for that reason alone. And adding salt is not without its own risks. It is one thing to use salt to deal with a specific and confirmed issue, depending upon the fish species (sometimes there are better treatments, depending), but not otherwise. You are quite right that salt will harm loaches; it will also harm most soft water fish in particular--the WCMM would likely not be as badly affected, but there is no point in stressing out the fish with salt for no purpose. Salt interferes with the physiology of freshwater fish in several ways I won't go into now but will if asked.
An aquarium is a biological system that has many inter-connected components. Every time we interfere in some way--by adding substances, treatments, etc--we are adding another component into the works, and in some cases this can be dangerous. Nature has perfected the processes, and my view is to let nature carry them out with as little interference from me as possible. Being a closed system this is the more crucial.
Water changes should be weekly at minimum. I always change half the tank water, using dechlorinator for the amount changed, and nothing else. Vacuum the substrate during the water change; how much this is needed rather depends upon the fish, frequency of feedings, live plants, etc. I rinse my canister filters every 2-4 months, depending upon the tank (again a different tank has different conditions). I have fairly well planted tanks, so the plants do most of this work and the filter is merely there to move the water around and filter out particulate matter.
Byron.
An aquarium is a biological system that has many inter-connected components. Every time we interfere in some way--by adding substances, treatments, etc--we are adding another component into the works, and in some cases this can be dangerous. Nature has perfected the processes, and my view is to let nature carry them out with as little interference from me as possible. Being a closed system this is the more crucial.
Water changes should be weekly at minimum. I always change half the tank water, using dechlorinator for the amount changed, and nothing else. Vacuum the substrate during the water change; how much this is needed rather depends upon the fish, frequency of feedings, live plants, etc. I rinse my canister filters every 2-4 months, depending upon the tank (again a different tank has different conditions). I have fairly well planted tanks, so the plants do most of this work and the filter is merely there to move the water around and filter out particulate matter.
Byron.
Didn't touch the filter today, just a straight clean (pruned some of the plants, though). No Prime except in the replacement water; I double-dosed it, about .5ml for 11 litres, but then I don't know the exact parameters of my tap water so it probably doesn't matter as much as it does for the tank. Still getting the faint readings on the Nutrafin nitrites test, but one thing I don't think completely helps is I compare against a tap sample (which I did actually conduct a nitrite test on for additional comparison tonight), and the contrast is always greater between the tap and tank samples when I first hold it against the paper than after a few more moments of trying to actually 'see' the colours (and I don't think holding it against the paper helps much either - it back-lights it, the refraction of the light through the test tube reflecting off the paper back through the water samples, making the test colours brighter/more vivid).
I'm also experiencing setbacks using Aquarist Classifieds in the hopes of rehoming the Clown Loach as I'm now getting trolled/abusive messages. I know not to respond, but it's still discouraging. Not sure which fish forums might be the best to use in the search of a new home for him, or if I'll have much luck on fish forums in the classifieds sections.
I'm also experiencing setbacks using Aquarist Classifieds in the hopes of rehoming the Clown Loach as I'm now getting trolled/abusive messages. I know not to respond, but it's still discouraging. Not sure which fish forums might be the best to use in the search of a new home for him, or if I'll have much luck on fish forums in the classifieds sections.
Kaidonni said:
Double dosing Prime isn't going to make any difference really in this case imho, in fact I'd advise against overdosing Prime as I have heard too many stories of how overdosing dechlorinator has affected stocking and, in some cases, even fatal for some stocking.
Basically, just stick with the recommended dosage of Prime, continue doing water changes when appropraite and keep an eye on your fish behaviour, they will tell you if anything is amiss with the water column much better than testing water parameters all the time.
New impeller fitted this evening, but tests show not very much difference even without Prime (probably too soon to tell if the new impeller helps the performance of the filter and water flow, although it might be moving it about faster from what I can see...I think). Still minute levels of nitrites registering, though without comparing to a clear sample of (un-tested) tap water it's extremely difficult to see except by the ring of refraction at the top of the water sample. Of course, the contrast is always greater the moment I first compare a tank sample to a tap sample, but then it becomes less contrasted as can be expected when my eyes have had time to adjust.
I was stupid and ignorant all those years ago...a 45L-50L (closer to 45L) tank is no place for a Clown Loach, so I'm hoping someone steps forward at some point to rehome him before he does get sick and die. He didn't start out in that tank, it was actually 90L until it sprung a leak (he also wasn't on his own, he had two other Clown Loaches to keep him company - I cringe when I think about it now, and realise how lucky I was to not have more problems). I'm doing the best I can given the circumstances, and can only keep doing what I'm doing until he is rehomed, whenever that will be. The five White Cloud Mountain Minnows appear to be doing fine, in fact since I stopped dosing the Prime the two males seem to have gotten a bit more lively when it comes to showing off to one another and the females.
I was stupid and ignorant all those years ago...a 45L-50L (closer to 45L) tank is no place for a Clown Loach, so I'm hoping someone steps forward at some point to rehome him before he does get sick and die. He didn't start out in that tank, it was actually 90L until it sprung a leak (he also wasn't on his own, he had two other Clown Loaches to keep him company - I cringe when I think about it now, and realise how lucky I was to not have more problems). I'm doing the best I can given the circumstances, and can only keep doing what I'm doing until he is rehomed, whenever that will be. The five White Cloud Mountain Minnows appear to be doing fine, in fact since I stopped dosing the Prime the two males seem to have gotten a bit more lively when it comes to showing off to one another and the females.
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