Do Fish Feel Pain?

[Darkstar]

Of course fish feel pain...it's stupid to assume otherwise.

http/www.aquariacentral.com/articles/fishpain.shtml

 

[MHunt]

http/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2983045.stm

Try this on the bbc website it mentions the study also.

 

[andywg]

Of course fish feel pain...it's stupid to assume otherwise.

http/www.aquariacentral.com/articles/fishpain.shtml

It is not at all stupid to assume fish do not feel pain. Your link does not contain any links to scientific work, just someone's observations of cichlids creating territories - absolutely no scientific evidence that the fish feel pain at all.

Pain is a psycholgical experience, not physical. If you put your hand on a hot iron it is an automatic physical reaction to the damage beinc caused that pulls it away. The pain is a psychological experience which prevents you from wanting to do it again.

Pain in mammals is processed in the neocortex. Fish do not appear to have developed this area of the brain and therefore if they are to truly feel pain it must be processed in a different way to mammals. fish have, however, developped a spinal chord and as such can respond in an automatic way.

One must remember that the debate on fish feeling pain is a scientific one one certain properties. Most people on this board tend to anthropomorphise their fish when considering this.

 

[Darkstar]

Of course fish feel pain...it's stupid to assume otherwise.

http/www.aquariacentral.com/articles/fishpain.shtml

It is not at all stupid to assume fish do not feel pain. Your link does not contain any links to scientific work, just someone's observations of cichlids creating territories - absolutely no scientific evidence that the fish feel pain at all.

Pain is a psycholgical experience, not physical. If you put your hand on a hot iron it is an automatic physical reaction to the damage beinc caused that pulls it away. The pain is a psychological experience which prevents you from wanting to do it again.

Pain in mammals is processed in the neocortex. Fish do not appear to have developed this area of the brain and therefore if they are to truly feel pain it must be processed in a different way to mammals. fish have, however, developped a spinal chord and as such can respond in an automatic way.

One must remember that the debate on fish feeling pain is a scientific one one certain properties. Most people on this board tend to anthropomorphise their fish when considering this.

No my link doesn't contain any scientific work, however it's written by Shane Linder. As far as I'm concerned it doesn't need to, I trust Shanes opinin far more than any opinion I'd read in this thread.

 

[Kazuya73]

anthropomorphise

Def.-To ascribe human feelings to

In case anyone else didn't know what that meant ​

 

[andywg]

No my link doesn't contain any scientific work, however it's written by Shane Linder. As far as I'm concerned it doesn't need to, I trust Shanes opinin far more than any opinion I'd read in this thread.

This thread shouldn't be about opinions at all, but rather the scientific question over whether fish feel pain. Just because someone has kept a lot of fish does not mean they have a masterful grip and understanding on the workings of a fish's central nervous system.

 

[MHunt]

We call pain, pain because we can express it. Just because it is difficult scientifically to determine whether fish "feel" pain or just respond to what we would consider as pain doesn't mean they don't feel it in their own way.

If it can be shown that fish react to what we would consider painful stimuli, then we should see this as them feeling pain. Fish do respond to what we might consider psycological effects such as bullying or fear. So pain may well be one of these indicators to the fish that something is not right or hurt.

 

[richchappy]

Just to throw another spanner into the works, someone mentioned fish pull away when hooked as they know death is around the corner so you are saying they remember... How come carp that have been caught many times and returned safely still fight, surely if you think they have that logic they would work out if they swam towards you they would have it over with quicker. Also carp are able to solve problems as proved on the KORDA STATE OF THE ARE UNDERWATER CARP FISHING dvds where they film carps reactions when being fished for and bigger fish have worked how to pic up the bait and then work out how to get the hook out of there mouths without being caught....
Just another opinion as being a carp angler i have witnessed many fishs reactions when caught

 

[Bignose]

well, I must say, I believe I have stumbled upon the 1st report..... (ending in no receptors in the mouth region) In the second however, same study, they expose to heat and chemicals and found that there was brain activity suggesting that the DO INDEED feel pain.... apparently they were now able to locate 58 spots where receptors are located.... ugh I'm lost now.....

http/www.abc.net.au/science/k2/moments/s1739175.htm

I think that this is another website from the one that i oridginally visited but it contains the "Part 2" and I think, a wrap up for the study.....

After reading both again, this website does not mention the first not finding the receptors the first time around, I will find that when i get home from class and post it....

There seem to be two articles based on that link:

Title: Do fishes have nociceptors? Evidence for the evolution of a vertebrate sensory system
Author(s): Sneddon LU, Braithwaite VA, Gentle MJ
Source: PROCEEDINGS OF THE ROYAL SOCIETY OF LONDON SERIES B-BIOLOGICAL SCIENCES 270 (1520): 1115-1121 JUN 7 2003

and

Title: Novel object test: Examining nociception and fear in the rainbow trout
Author(s): Sneddon LU, Braithwaite VA, Gentle MJ
Source: JOURNAL OF PAIN 4 ( 8 ): 431-440 OCT 2003

They talk about how nociception and pain perception are two different issues. Very much like I said in my first post in this thread. Nociception is detection of tissue-damaging substances and environments, and a fish's response to them is instinct. Not pain reception. Again, it is an issue of whether the information goes to the brain or not. Indeed, the study found that there were very few pain perceptors in a rainbow trout's head (including the mouth/lips). Note that the conclusion was not zero pain perceptors, the phrase the authors used was "[nociicpetors were] most common." However, there were an abundance of nocicpetors, responding to mechanical pressure, sharp increases in temperature and 1% acetic acid solutions. The real question at head then is the first response is due to instinct -- all animals' first reaction is instinct, including humans -- but then after do they feel pain? Again the study didn't say zero pain perceptors, just they were less common when compared to higher vertebrates. So, from that maybe the pain is not quite as acute, but physiologically, there is nothing preventing fish from feeling pain.

Finally, I can't just let Darkstar's comments go without a brief comment of my own. Darkstar, you can believe whatever you want, but opinions not substantiated by facts have no place in a debate such as this, and don't contribute anything to such a discussion. And calling someone stupid because they might think otherwise is pretty childish, if you would have looked through this thread there is a valid debate going on... whether fish have the same number/kind of pain perceptors, whether their responses are more instinct than pain responses, whether fish's brains are developed enough to even perceive pain as we know it today. These are valid questions that cannot be brushed aside with your hand and your dismissive comments. It is fine to have your own opinions about this, but be respectful and drop the name-calling.

 

[Opcn]

We call pain, pain because we can express it. Just because it is difficult scientifically to determine whether fish "feel" pain or just respond to what we would consider as pain doesn't mean they don't feel it in their own way.

If it can be shown that fish react to what we would consider painful stimuli, then we should see this as them feeling pain. Fish do respond to what we might consider psycological effects such as bullying or fear. So pain may well be one of these indicators to the fish that something is not right or hurt.

Again I would stress that pain is not to make us react but to make us remember. There are plants that react to physical stimulus, but they have no nerves at all and cannot feel anything in any way.

Richchappy

Its not that they remember that getting pulled along will end up with them getting eaten, its that all the fish that didn't have the inborn instinct to flee from something that grabs them died hundreds of millions of years ago. Its a very deeply inborn instinct and getting released by a few fishermen wouldn't result in its erasure.

Edit: Darkstar

His opinion may hold a lot of water with you, but to us the only thing that matters is the arguments he makes, he fails to make any argument that warrants calling other people stupid. You have to remember that we are not you, while you should be able to count on us taking a look at things from your POV you need to take a look from our POV and realize that Shane Linder is just Shane Linder and that doesn't lend credibility to his name.

 

[MHunt]

We call pain, pain because we can express it. Just because it is difficult scientifically to determine whether fish "feel" pain or just respond to what we would consider as pain doesn't mean they don't feel it in their own way.

If it can be shown that fish react to what we would consider painful stimuli, then we should see this as them feeling pain. Fish do respond to what we might consider psycological effects such as bullying or fear. So pain may well be one of these indicators to the fish that something is not right or hurt.

Again I would stress that pain is not to make us react but to make us remember. There are plants that react to physical stimulus, but they have no nerves at all and cannot feel anything in any way.

Ok, but in one of the reports it does mention that there is a response in the brain to again what we would consider painful stimuli, so if the brain responds, then the fish is feeling something, surely.

I recall when i had lice in my coldwater tank, watching a louse swim towards my goldfish, and the fish going crazy when the louse latched on. If that isn't a response to pain, or at least discomfort then i don't know what is!

I have neither the skill or the desire to start dissecting fish and looking for different types of nerve receptors, or a certain part of the brain that processes pain. But in my anecdotal experience, i have observed what looks like discomfort or pain in several of my fish. As a result i would do whatever possible to keep my fish happy and healthy.

 

[Opcn]

Processing stimuli and pain are different. When I fed my hand through a table saw I absolutely reacted to it right away. My hand let me know that it was cut, but I didn't get any pain in my hand for at least 30 seconds. Thats because My reaction and my pain were completely separate. I think it would be foolish to state unequivacably that the response to stimuli that would cause pain in humans is evidence the the sensation of pain perception because they are not tied together in humans. Every once in a while a drop of warm water will land on me and I will react like I've just been burnt but there is no pain at all because its only a reflexive reaction and its just a drop of warm water.