Do American cichlids work the same as Africans for aggression control?

[AmyKieran]

What I mean by this is,

The typical way to deal with aggression in African cichlids is to add more and feed as much as possible aswell as giving ample hiding spots throughout.

Is this the same method that should be used to dim aggression in Americans?

 

[itiwhetu]

What I mean by this is,

The typical way to deal with aggression in African cichlids is to add more and feed as much as possible aswell as giving ample hiding spots throughout.

Is this the same method that should be used to dim aggression in Americans?

Basically, all Cichlids like a crowd

 

[itiwhetu]

Check this out

Severums having fun

This is mum dad and the kids. This was a 250 liter tank the Severums spawned multiple times and always managed to raise a few. When I sold the set up there were 30 Severums plus the two Jewel Cichlids you can see in the photo.

www.fishforums.net

 

[AmyKieran]

Check this out

Severums having fun

This is mum dad and the kids. This was a 250 liter tank the Severums spawned multiple times and always managed to raise a few. When I sold the set up there were 30 Severums plus the two Jewel Cichlids you can see in the photo.

www.fishforums.net

Awesome, the only thing I then wonder is how many I could put in my 110 litre? I already have ellioti, convicts and polar parrots and I’m finding they are pretty much beating others up, could I theoretically do with them as I’ve done with Africans? Such as putting maybe I dunno 10-15 in to dim this aggression? Assuming they will need rotated at some point once they reach a certain size? All fish I have in are 2inch and smaller

 

[itiwhetu]

Awesome, the only thing I then wonder is how many I could put in my 110 litre? I already have ellioti, convicts and polar parrots and I’m finding they are pretty much beating others up, could I theoretically do with them as I’ve done with Africans? Such as putting maybe I dunno 10-15 in to dim this aggression? Assuming they will need rotated at some point once they reach a certain size? All fish I have in are 2inch and smaller

That is the cool thing about keeping fish you just don't know until you try. I have always pushed boundaries maybe you will to

 

[AmyKieran]

That is the cool thing about keeping fish you just don't know until you try. I have always pushed boundaries maybe you will to

Yeah let’s cram 120 in I think, may even donate some of my Africans too haha

Joking aside

I feel the aggression may be a bit much and feeding/hiding spots are good, may have to get a few more

 

[Wills]

Itiwhetu has a different experience to me but I dont agree here.

The reason people overstock Africans is because it is somewhat natural in the wild because the rift lakes are an almost sealed eco system and though huge has a limited size the population density is pretty accurate and the colony of fish will take a single crevice or small cave in rocks but this is not the same for Americans.

In American rivers (South and Central) fish move around a lot more, through the rainy seasons fish get flushed through pools and ponds, over flooded forests and as the water recedes in the dry seasons they are in more traditional rivers and lakes. But they all often have a staked out area that they own as territory. Central Americans are probably more fixed in this way (as in they need the space) you can find quite a lot of footage of places like Lake Nicaragua where you can see the big areas breeding fish take up.

An other difference with American Cichlids is also that they live in diverse biotopes rather than the rift lakes. In the Rift Lakes there are limits to the diversity but in the Amazon and Central American rivers and lakes you get all sorts. And these fish can help diffuse aggression. Which is a better route to take but I wouldnt add fish to this tank because you are probably overstocked as it is.

The reason they are probably fighting is that your 110 litre tank is just too small for them, putting more in wont help here. You need to be in the realms of 250 litres or more if you want to mix Central American species. I have a 100 litre tank and keep 2 inch pufferfish and gobies in there, I'd never put fish like yours in there that can easily hit 6 inches. A good rule of thumb for a minimum is 6x length and 2x width based on the adult size of the fish so a 6 inch fish need a minimum of a 3x1 foot tank but that would be if you had 1 pair of 1 type of cichlid, if you want to go down a mixed route you really need to be in a 4-5 foot long tank. As an other example (its a slow burn) but I'm planning a 4 foot 300 litre tank and I want 2-3 cichlids in there, all the same gender (female) and that is me done because I've had big mixed cichlid tanks and I know what I'm comfortable with in terms of aggression and expectations.

Is there anyway you can consider a bigger tank? Check out things like Facebook Marketplace, Gumtree etc a lot of people sell second hand tanks and you just have to keep an eye out.

Wills

 

[AmyKieran]

Itiwhetu has a different experience to me but I dont agree here.

The reason people overstock Africans is because it is somewhat natural in the wild because the rift lakes are an almost sealed eco system and though huge has a limited size the population density is pretty accurate and the colony of fish will take a single crevice or small cave in rocks but this is not the same for Americans.

In American rivers (South and Central) fish move around a lot more, through the rainy seasons fish get flushed through pools and ponds, over flooded forests and as the water recedes in the dry seasons they are in more traditional rivers and lakes. But they all often have a staked out area that they own as territory. Central Americans are probably more fixed in this way (as in they need the space) you can find quite a lot of footage of places like Lake Nicaragua where you can see the big areas breeding fish take up.

An other difference with American Cichlids is also that they live in diverse biotopes rather than the rift lakes. In the Rift Lakes there are limits to the diversity but in the Amazon and Central American rivers and lakes you get all sorts. And these fish can help diffuse aggression. Which is a better route to take but I wouldnt add fish to this tank because you are probably overstocked as it is.

The reason they are probably fighting is that your 110 litre tank is just too small for them, putting more in wont help here. You need to be in the realms of 250 litres or more if you want to mix Central American species. I have a 100 litre tank and keep 2 inch pufferfish and gobies in there, I'd never put fish like yours in there that can easily hit 6 inches. A good rule of thumb for a minimum is 6x length and 2x width based on the adult size of the fish so a 6 inch fish need a minimum of a 3x1 foot tank but that would be if you had 1 pair of 1 type of cichlid, if you want to go down a mixed route you really need to be in a 4-5 foot long tank. As an other example (its a slow burn) but I'm planning a 4 foot 300 litre tank and I want 2-3 cichlids in there, all the same gender (female) and that is me done because I've had big mixed cichlid tanks and I know what I'm comfortable with in terms of aggression and expectations.

Is there anyway you can consider a bigger tank? Check out things like Facebook Marketplace, Gumtree etc a lot of people sell second hand tanks and you just have to keep an eye out.

Wills

Not really we don’t have a lot of money after setting up that tank, I know still a bit small but we are specifically picking the smaller variety’s of American cichlids and going to return the ones getting too big. I may suggest the idea and see how well it goes. Possibly Could increase at some point

 

[GaryE]

Basically, all Cichlids like a crowd

Wow. A lot of hobbyists hate Cichlids and say stuff like that. It would be extremely harmful if you took that statement seriously.

East African Cichlids can be crowded because they're primitive mouthbrooders. They have no need to defend a brood rearing space because the female carries the eggs and larvae in her mouth, and the male has nothing to do with brood care. That kind of simple approach, behaviourally, allows them to live without defined turf. Males will fight for breeding spots, but they move on on, move around and the the same spot can be held by several species at various times.

The next step in complexity is switch mouthbrooders, where the parents trade carrying eggs and larvae, and defend each other. Already, you have territory developing, and already, @itiwhetu 's joke isn't funny. My West African shared brooders were very territorial, although they didn't kill interlopers.

Once eggs are laid on a surface, the game changes and territory is claimed. Places are needed to safely raise the kids in, even if there are no kids yet. Non East African Cichlids you crowd end up at the surface where territory holders drive them, and if you don't remove them, they die. How aggressively that territory, defined by a rock formation, wood, a heater, whatever (Cichlids are visual) is defended depends on the species. But for territorial cichlids (from everywhere but Lakes Malawi and sometimes Lake Victoria in east Africa) crowding is a cruel approach. You can sometimes reach a competitive balance if you keep one of each species, shoehorn them in and enjoy watching them hover nervously. But you aren't keeping the fish in anything approaching what they need. Technically, you can keep a dog in a crate too. Should you? No.

Forget "Cichlid". It's an umbrella, but it includes a wide range of behaviours, needs and adaptations. There is nothing major a Cichlid does that every Cichlid does, beyond being a fish that breeds, eats and moves. We're all Primates here, but we humans don't live the same way as chimps, macaques, howlers or spider moneys, in spite of similarities. As an aquarist, you're the space alien who brought home a collection of primates from Earth, and you'd be wise to look at each species as different and deserving of the attention you should give to their needs.

 

[Wills]

Really good post above!

Not really we don’t have a lot of money after setting up that tank, I know still a bit small but we are specifically picking the smaller variety’s of American cichlids and going to return the ones getting too big. I may suggest the idea and see how well it goes. Possibly Could increase at some point

Thats really understandable its an expensive hobby, especially at the moment. I think the best thing you could do for these fish is to keep one species and rehome the the others. Given our recent chats I would rehome the Ellioti and the Parrots and give the 100 litre to the breeding Convicts.

I know we have discussed controversially stocked tanks but I think this one is a bit beyond that and you need to make some decisions as to if these fishes best interests are being met by you keeping them, because I don't think they are. You've said the aggression levels are getting bad now and it will only get worse.

Wills

 

[AmyKieran]

Really good post above!



Thats really understandable its an expensive hobby, especially at the moment. I think the best thing you could do for these fish is to keep one species and rehome the the others. Given our recent chats I would rehome the Ellioti and the Parrots and give the 100 litre to the breeding Convicts.

I know we have discussed controversially stocked tanks but I think this one is a bit beyond that and you need to make some decisions as to if these fishes best interests are being met by you keeping them, because I don't think they are. You've said the aggression levels are getting bad now and it will only get worse.

Wills

Yes I think that’s more then a fair comment, I’ll find anyone for the ellioti

Thanks

 

[Colin_T]

We're all Primates here, but we humans don't live the same way as chimps, macaques, howlers or spider moneys, in spite of similarities.

speak for yourself monkey boy


Humans and chimps do live similar lives. They live in groups of family members and friends. They have territories they defend. They fight their neighbours and try to expand their territory.

Besides not using houses and cars, they lead very similar lives to you human monkey ape type creatures.

 

[Byron]

I made an observation a few months back concerning multiple species of neotropical cichlids being in the same tank. In case some new members don't recognize "neotropical," it refers to species native to the tropical areas in the new world--South and Central America, Mexico and southern USA).

None of these cichlids live together in nature. That is a profound point, because it means they never come into conflict with other similarly-territorial minded cichlids. And that alone has a significant impact on their well-being.

Most of them should never be combined with other cichlid species. Exception is some of the dwarf species, in suitably-sized tanks. But as Neale Monks has advised, keeping Firemouth Cichlid(s) in with any of the more robust cichlids is cruel; the Firemouth is a much "gentler" cichlid and deserves better. As just one example, not suggesting this species is mentioned here.

The East African rift lake species is a totally different ballgame, as other members have previous well explained in this thread.

 

[FishNturt808]

I agree with most everyone else here who said don’t overstock new world cichlids. There is a light change in the rules for species only. Especially blood parrots, they are a whole different topic altogether.
If they don’t have enough room they will fight till the loser is dead. Doesn’t matter how many hides or line of sight breaks.
I have tanks with mixed species but I keep it to just 2 fish per tank. And, a male and female. Luckily my firemouth and polar blue (55 gallon pair)haven’t mated, unfortunately my Texas and polar blue (60 gallon pair) have.
Before I figured out what worked for me I tried mixing all kinds of new worlds and numbers, and it always resulted in dead fish or moving fish to new tanks.

 

[GaryE]

speak for yourself monkey boy

Ooh ooh, ahh ahh aaaaaaghhghghgh. Thump thump.

There have been less articulate posts on fish forums recently.