Difficulty with bucephalandra "minis"

[gimme30]

I really like the mini varieties of bucephalandra but haven't had much luck with any of them so far. Retailers list mostly the same lighting/nutrient requirements for these as they do for their larger cousins but I'm finding that info isn't always correct. For example, every variety is supposed to be 'low light,' but in my experience black pearl needs moderate lighting and melts away in the shade. Same with white marble, or rainbow frost.
But I can't seem to get any of the minis to thrive regardless of lighting or where they're placed in the tank. Is there some trick to these I'm missing?

So far I've tried mini red, mini catherinae, lamandau mini, bukit kelam, and velvet tricolor but they've all melted away. By that I mean not just losing leaves from conversion but the rhizomes dying.
About a month ago I received some pink malawi that nearly melted completely away but looks to be recovering now. It too requires more light than recommended. Unfortunately it's the only buce I've had that is making a comeback.

I'd appreciate any advice you might have about minis specifically. These things aren't cheap!

Also, has anyone run across a reliable source for proven requirements for bucephalandra in general? I know they're relatively new and constantly being renamed but it seems there'd be a consensus on at least the varieties that have been around for a while.

 

[fishorama]

Ugh, I have trouble with buces too. My big problem seems to be losing them as in not being able to find them in the tank, lol. I think some are still alive, just tucked under other plants some place...

I belong to a plant club & have been given a few kinds. They mostly don't come with names or if they do it's something like brownie blue, brownie something else or just 1 of the big 1s, etc.

So, I have no good advice but lots of sympathy. What size tank & what lights are you using?

 

[Abaddon]

Have you had any success with any type of buce in this tank? Or have they always struggled? Did you get all of them from the same source? If so, maybe ask the previous owner/producer what setup they use & what their parameters are, just to get an idea. And how are the other plants doing - especially fast-growing ones, if you have any?
Also, do you use liquid carbon by any chance? It's been known to cause damage to certain species of plants.

 

[gimme30]

The 'bigger' varieties do well, although I don't have many...kedang, brownie blue, green wavy and skeleton king. They seem to take forever to get established but they're all producing new leaves and none of them had any melt at all. For sources I think I've tried practically everybody, but have mainly settled on Aquarium Plants Factory because they have great deals, send big plants, and get them to me quickly.
Along with a bunch of snails, but I won't get into that.

They all go into a 20l with a Fluval 3.0 set very low to acclimate/convert whether that will be their final home or not, mainly because I'd read somewhere that buce do better in an established tank. Along with anubias nana there's ludwigia and wisteria that are near impossible to keep up with but those are the only fast growers.
At first I thought maybe it was the glue although I use so little they tend to float away after a while if they don't die first. I've also tried wedging them into driftwood or cholla being sure to keep the rhizome exposed to light but still no luck.

I have hard water, 10-12dGH in the summer, around 14 in the winter, TDS over 350. Over the month of May I slowly brought that down to 8dGH using r/o, (there's shrimp in that tank) and kept it that way through June thinking maybe these smaller varieties might acclimate better but again, no luck.

The one exception is a 'growers choice' on coconut shell that is doing fine. They don't tell you what types they are but none of them look similar to anything I've tried yet. Maybe there's only certain varieties that will work in my water? That's why I was hoping there was a reference somewhere.
I love the way these tiny little things look in big bunches, but maybe I should stick with the 'standard' versions. Rats!!

 

[anewbie]

I have one group of mini blue some or something growing well in blackwater but in truth i never had luck with the white varities mini or otherwise but i gave up long ago with co2 or pumping in strong light after all my fish tanks are fish tank with plants not plant tanks with fish

 

[Zer0Fame]

Hey,

Also, has anyone run across a reliable source for proven requirements for bucephalandra in general?

as an avid Bucephalandra collector:

- Light is almost never an issue, all Bucephalandra thrive in relatively little light, though different light levels change the looks
- The absolutely hate big changes. (Might be the issue? They also seem to not like quick temperature changes)
- Potassium should be >4 ppm in low light conditions and >6 in high light conditions
- They hate bacterial growth on them (which in my opinion is the reason they often wither in new tanks)
- A severe lack of CO2 can hurt them, much like Anubias
- They like relatively high micronutrient levels
- Water shouldn't be too cold, but room temperature is usually enough

Fun plants, this one (named 'magician') was blasted with light stronger than the sun, basically to force it to adapt an extreme color.



Unfortunately lost almost my whole collection (several thousand $) when my main tank broke.
Lesson learned ... like in IT, *always* have backups...

 

[fishorama]

Wow, Zer0Fame, you gave some very good advice. I'm very sorry you lost all your buces. That is vastly worse than my missing 1s & gimme30's unhappy minis. "magician" is very cool!

I thought Skeleton King was a harder 1 to grow for some reason. Maybe it could be our local water.

 

[gimme30]

@Zer0Fame First off yikes! And I'm sorry to hear that! I've got a couple hundred down the drain so far with these things but that sort of loss is devastating. Could none be saved?

Of course now I have more questions....

By bacterial growth, are you talking about something you can see with the naked eye? As far as I can tell they look ok when I put them in the tank and I've never noticed anything out of the ordinary once they're in. I guess I could dig out my old microscope and take a look. They are going into a 'seasoned' tank though so maybe we can rule that one out?
For ferts I use a variety of liquids dosed to manufacturer recommendations but I do have potassium and can dose more-I've packed away all my reef stuff but there's a potassium test kit in there somewhere. I'll have to see if it works for freshwater.

A severe lack of CO2 can hurt them, much like Anubias

This is worrisome. I hope you mean severe depletion and not that they need it injected. The tanks got waaaaay too much filter on it....the shrimp could surf if they had boards. I don't think oxygen exchange could be any more optimal without adding CO2. Speaking of...
Could flow be an issue? From what I've read in the wild they come from fast flowing waters. In my tank some get placed into relatively still areas, and some in places where they get blown around considerably. I didn't think it would matter since they're grown emersed in presumably stagnant conditions.

As for big changes I think the biggest is simply getting yanked out of the environment they're grown in, enduring shipping, and getting plopped into my tank. Unfortunately I can't get it locally so not much I can do about that. I don't do frequent water changes and try to match the temperature when I do, (72f/22c) and they also don't go through quarantine or a bleach dip anymore-I learned the hard way they definitely do NOT like that!

I thought Skeleton King was a harder 1 to grow for some reason

That's why I was hoping there'd be some sort of concrete reference. With so much differing information out there, who do you believe? I know fish, but this whole plant thing has me baffled. I mean, they're PLANTS fercryinoutloud, it shouldn't be this difficult!

It's so frustrating. It seems like I'm doing everything right but getting nowhere.

 

[Zer0Fame]

Hey,

Skeleton King

one of my favorites!

Could none be saved?

Only a few ... still have a ghost 2011 mini (which is not a real 2011 of course, but stunning nonetheless. The "real" 2011 unfortunately didn't make it.)
The one that bothered me the most was not even named yet ... only 3 existed worldwide. It was dull looking, but very special, due to the rarity.

Oh and one of the unknown ones I could save. Doesn't have a name and only a few exist. I was lucky enough to know the right people.

By bacterial growth, are you talking about something you can see with the naked eye?

Often, yes, that slimy stuff that often grows on wood in a fresh tank. If your tank is already cycled, that shouldn't be much of a worry.

potassium test kit

Might be a good idea. Not sure about the US, but here in Germany, tapwater often lacks potassium. I was lucky enough that my provider upped the levels to 4ppm, but often enough tap water here is <2ppm or even <1ppm.
Same with magnesium.

Can you access water analysis by the provider? Again, I can only talk about Germany ... here they're required to provide a yearly lab report to the public, free of charge.

I hope you mean severe depletion and not that they need it injected.

Yep! A CO2 system is not needed (though of course it helps).
Some tanks develop extremely low CO2 levels (Anubias show this with biogenic decalcification). Air bubblers might, for example, be bad for Bucephalandra (or good, if the air contains a higher CO2 level than the water ).

The tanks got waaaaay too much filter on it

As in power or as in media? The latter could also be hurting plants.
Flow is not an issue. I have them in high-flow and still tanks.

I learned the hard way they definitely do NOT like that!

Citric acid dip is a nice method against algae. For unwanted bugs, I simple use sparkling water. And against bacteria I use potassium permanganate.

I don't do frequent water changes

Before you add the next ones, you could try to do a big water change beforehand and add some tannins and humins. Not much, water doesn't need to be yellow, just a bit. One catappa leave for example. Weirdly enough, they seem to like that.
Would you happen to have a picture of the tank?

 

[anewbie]

I've tried skeleton king in blackwater, softwater and hardwater and while it might last 6 months and have started new leaves that will form eventually it seems to always rot - the only one i've grown with real success has been emersed.

 

[Tacocat]

the only one i've grown with real success has been emersed.

I concur!

I too have tried buce in various setups, and the best underwater results I got was with CO2 and high lighting alongside quick growing plants for algae control. For the best buces though, I've been planting them at the waterline on pieces of wood that break the surface, so I get both emersed and submersed growth. The roots will absorb as many nutrients as they need from the water, and the leaves grow excellently so long as the environment is humid enough.

 

[Magnum Man]

skeleton king... yikes, sounds like a cult... very knowledgeable posters here... I guess I have nothing to offer, only repeat what nature offers in the wild...

"grows along the edges of fast flowing streams" to me sounds like the flow brings plenty of nutrients, and washes the plants to keep them clean... not found in the centers as much as the edges , may offer some clues???

I've not tried them myself, but prefer rhizome plants, so at some point may have to try a few after I run out of interesting anubis species...
BTW... if you are worried about the glues ( I don't use any ) I've had good luck with small zip ties for attaching to various had scape...

 

[Zer0Fame]

so at some point may have to try a few

...that's how it started for me. Some time later, I had the private numbers of some sellers.

Be careful.

 

[anewbie]

...that's how it started for me. Some time later, I had the private numbers of some sellers.

Be careful.

Indonisa will sell him a few million Typically they are only $5 each of course you have to throw in shipping and custom processing but hey nothing is free.

 

[gimme30]

Sorry about the late reply, it's our busy season so for the next 3 or 4 weeks it's all work/sleep and nothing else.

As in power or as in media? The latter could also be hurting plants.

Power. I don't recall the exact specs off the top of my head but it's somewhere around 300gph which is overkill for this tank. I'm using the single directional spout blowing diagonally across the surface but could switch to the rain pipe, although there aren't any buces sitting directly in the flow at the moment. As for media it's the standard stuff...coarse sponge, floss, Fluval bio-fx and a small amount of matrix.

Can you access water analysis by the provider?

Yes, I'm looking at it now and they list a range of between 4-11ppm potassium. They also list tds as between 174-608ppm but I've never seen it any lower than 300ish. Nitrates at .1-.8ppm and nitrites 0-.05ppm. If there's something else I should look at I'd appreciate the advice!

I'm not sure that I want to try any more of the minis...Once things slow down I'm redoing a larger bowfront that I'd love to put them in, but just a handful of these tiny little things run over $100 and that'll buy enough whiskey to dull the pain of watching them melt away. If I do order more it'll have to wait til the spring when I know they won't be completely frozen when they arrive.

I've tried skeleton king in blackwater, softwater and hardwater and while it might last 6 months and have started new leaves that will form eventually it seems to always rot

Well, that's not good. I've had mine just over 6 months now but it isn't producing any more leaves. Argh.
Have you guys run across any that are relatively "bulletproof?" Especially minis?

Thank you everyone for your help and insight so far, I really appreciate it!!!