Different Test - Different Results

[JustKia]

So far I've been using tetra tests (liquid) for Ammonia and NitrIte. I confess I haven't been testing NitrAtes, but then I have been doing daily water changes.
For almost 3 weeks I've been getting the exact same results on my daily tests where both ammonia and nitrItes are darker than a zero reading but paler than the first non-zero reading - <0.2mg/l for ammonia and <0.3mg/l for nitrItes. So I upped my daily water changes to 50%, but have still been getting the exact same results.

I started off with small gravel (2-3mm) but then discovered sand, so we spent an after noon with the fish and filter (F3+) in a bucket, drained the tank, removed the gravel, replaced with washed play sand, added water and waited for it to settle. Fish and filter went back in late evening (aclimatised the fish as if I had just got them).

I did have a fluval 3+ but in less than 3 weeks (one of those being fishless) the clogging indicator triggered. Hubby decided that we'd just get a new filter and over filter (plus it always means we can upgrade to a bigger tank...) so now we have a fluval 405 external filter - I put the sponges from the old filter (they were rather yucky but I guess that's the bacs growing) in with the sponges of the new filter. It also has pre filter, bio max, ion exchange resin (nitrAte remover which claims to also remove toxic nitrItes) and polishing pads in the last (top) basket.
After changing the filters I have still been getting the same results - I have checked the tap water and do get 0-0 (tetra test) on that so I presumed it wasn't a faulty test kit.

I use Ammo-Lock as this dechlors and locks the ammonia in a non-toxic to fish form but still leaves it available to the bacteria. Once a week I add stress coat and stress zyme (but not on the same day).
All of these say 5ml per 38L water. 125L tank plus 8L in the filter = 132L (probably not quite because of the substrate, plants, ornaments, etc) so it's about 3.2 doses. I've been adding 15ml so a wee bit under.

I have 8 live plants and once a week they get 5ml of Seachem Flourish. Also have 5 Marimo moss balls and a 6" piece of bogwood.

I have 7 danios who look healthy, they use the whole tank (so much for being top dwellers lol), they have really good colours - are almost iridescent/metallic. The 2 boys change colour to gold in the mornings and spend several hours chasing the ladies. They get a varied diet including freeze dried daphina, bloodworm, brineshrimp; live daphina; hikari micro wafers; crushed up flake. I'm pretty stingy with food figuring that if they eat all the first pinch in less than 2 mins I can give them some more later. I do find the food sinks a lot of the time (even flake or micro wafers) but the danios do go down to pick it up.

So anyway, I got to wondering about these tests. All these water changes, over filtration, etc I'd be expecting some change in the test results - it's a bit disheartening to not see any progress.
I ordered an API master test kit online and when it arrrived I tested with that instead according to that my ammonia is between 2 and 4 - colour is between the 2 ref colours, and nitrItes are between 2 and 5 - again the result is between the 2 ref colours.
Tetra test results are still just above zero.
Tested tap water with API and get 0-0.

So I'm mighty confused one test says I'm almost done cycling but doesn't seem to be progressing while another test says all my fish should be dead, when in fact they are trying to breed and possibly/probably spawning.
How on earth can the API test results be right when I'm doing 50% daily water changes?

So, I'm confused. I know fish in cycling isn't the recommended route, but it's what I've got and I'm trying to do the best with what I have. I honestly thought I was doing OK, now I'm wondering...

 

[JustKia]

 

[OldMan47]

Kia, I would start by making sure that the sample vials are well rinsed out, then rinse them in the tank before grabbing your sample. This way the samples won't be contaminted from other testing or chemicals. If you retest the tank and still get high readings using the API kit, I would have to believe it. I have been using the API kit and it gives me the sky blue 0 for nitrites and the lemon yellow 0 for ammonia in my tanks so I know those colors can be obtained. It also gives me the yellowish green of 1.0 ammonia for my tap water. You need to make sure to read the instructions carefully and when you compare colors, make sure you have good lighting and put the white strip of the card behind your sample tube to avoid shifting colors by having some off white color behind your sample.
I have never used the Tetra kit so I don't know what to look for there.

 

[loachman]

I have heard reports of the Ammo-lock type products messing with the results of some test kits. They bind the chemicals up and when you mix the tank water with the test kit chems, they become free again and show up on the results.

Otherwise, follow the API kits instructions VERY carefully. Especially with regards to nitrAte, how long and vigorously you shake the vials makes a HUGE difference.

 

[waterdrop]

O dear, where to start? A number of things to question here but I've got to run before I can do that. Hopefully some other members will come along and get us started... I'll just go a bit with what I can fit in.

Usually TetraTest liquid test kits are quite good but these sound like they are possibly off for some unexplained reason. At least the fact that the new API ones show zero on the tap water but then levels on the tank water makes those kits sound like they might be working ok. You might also take a sample to a LFS if you have one you trust and get some additional numbers from them.

I does sound like you were doing a conscientious job of your Fish-In cycling, to your credit! The most important principle being to work hard on adjusting the percentage and frequency of water changes to maintain the lowest possible levels of ammonia and nitrite in the water, just like you would want a biological filter to do once its become operational.

One thing I would like help on from other members is the "Ion Exchange Resin." I vaguely recall reading about this once ages ago but can't remember whether members deemed it harmless or a problem to have in a normal filter. When you are trying to establish the two specific species of beneficial bacteria, you don't want any other chemicals or mechanisms in there that are possibly reducing their supply of ammonia and nitrite "food." Especially I would be suspicious of anything that attempted to remove nitrites (unless of course this is just "sales-speak" for the very removal of nitrites via the N-Bacs, which we are trying to grow!!)

Likewise, I would be very reluctant to be putting a conditioner (chlorine/chloramine remover) like API Stress Coat in on a regular basis, if not associated with just the dechlor process for new tap water. Perhaps that's all you are referring to is the dechlor process of the new water, for which it should be fine. The aloe (stress-coat) aspects are certainly not anything you need to be worrying about. I personally might consider a switch from stress-coat to Prime, as I just sometimes get a feeling Prime might do better during cycles than StressCoat, but I have no documented basis for that feeling. The StressZyme probably doesn't matter one way or the other since that's just an unknown, with most feeling that's a way make a donation to our strapped LFS businesses and dumping some inert dirt in the tank usually won't hurt it even though it wont do anything positive either, lol. Of course, some others think they've see real results from these things.

The question of putting Ammo-Lock in there I'll leave to others to discuss. I'm in the USA and there's a confusion with a different product of the same name over here that you definately would not want as it removes all the ammonia, no matter in which form, and renders it unavailable to the bacteria. The bottled stuff in UK may be perfectly ok and even recommended if you are overstocked for your situation. Indeed that may be the whole problem here, as I forget your stocking details.. fish-in cycling with the number/size of fish going over a certain point for the tank size can get more and more difficult to achieve (but, again, I can't remember tank size and fish, even though I know your threads have told us!)

Barring additional evidence that the new API tests are misbehaving, I'd be concerned that the water changes are insufficient for some reason currently, which, given the the terribly high amm/no2 levels you've cited (though we've got the caveat that the ammonia at least may be in a non-toxic state, confusing things) could be a serious concern. Ahh, wish MW would stop knocking down walls and take a break to help us!

~~waterdrop~~

 

[OldMan47]

Ion exchange resin are your worst enemy in my way of thinking and I missed it in my first answer. What it will do is take in a nitrate or nitrite ion and release an OH ion. In a typical mixed bed ion exchange resin, other ions are replacing H ions with positively charged ions so they will combine with the OH to become water. This all sounds pretty good because the nitrite and nitrate are not just tied up, they are actually removed. So why don't I like them? When the ion exchange capacity gets used up, the ion exchange just stops. It is not a gradual thing like a filter plugging up, it stops overnight. When you have been removing all ionic compounds from your water and not allowing the nitrite consuming bacteria any food, they suddenly are not being removed and you don't have the N-bacs to remove them. This is like jumping from a tall building because you can fall longer before hitting the ground. Eventually, you will wish you hadn't done it.

 

[waterdrop]

Yes, yes!! This is the danger I was remembering! Thank you OM47, its is indispensable to have ready experience like yours available in the beginner section and the fact that you are willing to take the time is really great.

This is yet another example of why it is important for us to establish what media and chemicals are being used/considered by our new beginners PRIOR to fishless cycling ideally, as it CAN make a difference.

JustKia, I'd say a review of your media sequences is in order to establish a correct replacement of that stuff with perhaps more of a normal biofiltration media. Chemical additives should also be reviewed. Your fish-in cycle may indeed be being harmed by these things.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[JustKia]

I'm willing to remove the ion exchange resin, there hasn't been a change in results since adding it and it's only been there for this past week, not the whole time (which in that case it doesn't look like it's doing anything anyway).
Both API and tetra give me 0-0 on tap water.
Will test tap water again today when I do the tank tests and water change.

I've read a few posts on the two different ammo-lock products, the one I've got is the UK Ammo-Lock which leaves the ammonia available to the bacs. I don't have any zeolite or the US ammo-lock that lock the ammonia up away from the bacs as well. But, yes two products with the same name is a recipe for disaster.

The stress zyme and stress coat say to add on days 1, 7 and 14. So I'll stop adding those completely. Ammo-Lock "removes chlorine and breaks the chloramine bond" so I've been using that at water changes.

Thanks for the input, let's hope there's some progress soon.

 

[JustKia]

Typical, all seems fine then when checking out the fish while doing my water change I find a female danio looking swollen (posted in emergencies http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=267698 )
Well, I did a large (probably close to 70%) water change got 0-0 on tetra tests but still reading about 1 on API.
Did another large change about an hour after and now have 0-0 on both tetra and API.