Detritus Worms? & Dead Shrimp

[markanthany]

 
Hey everyone,
So I noticed today that I have what I think are some detritus worms.  Edit: and I believe copepods now (insanely tiny white dots that scoot around).  Although what I've read online about them says they're harmless, I've had two shrimp mysteriously die during the past three days.  I'm new to keeping shrimp (aside from ghost shrimp) and this is in a cycled 5 gallon shrimp-only nano.  I've got cherries, and some red and blue crystal shrimp (10 total) as well as some babies and one ottocat.  I have a one and a half inch substrate of pool filter sand, a small sponge filter, a heater, and java moss and marimo moss balls.
 
My specs:
75 F
Hard water (I think our tap is just naturally very hard and this is the reading we get on all of our tanks [we have six] and I don't believe it's ever been a problem before, but if it can be harmful to shrimp, any tips on softening the water?)
6.8 ph
40 (kh) ppm alkalinity (same goes here, should I try to change this?)
0-0.5 nitrite (? test strip wasn't clear.)
0 ammonia
0 nitrate.
 
After noticing the two dead shrimp, I did a 60% water change (I didn't know that large water changes could be harmful to shrimp at the time. 

) and used a turkey baster to get out bits of waste.  I've had them for about a month (tank cycled with just plants for a month before adding shrimp) with no problems until now, and I thought I was feeding them sparingly enough (ground tetra/krill flakes and sinking frog pellets) but I guess I wasn't, and that's my guess for the worms.  
 
The thing is, the driftwood we put in there, though we boiled the crap out of them for hours, was still leeching some tannins and I was more worried about stressing the shrimp with water changes, so I left it alone for about two weeks, and during that time the water basically turned into tea—not cloudy, just brown.  The water is almost crystal clear now after the water change.  However, I realized that because the water was so dark before, I didn't notice these worms (if there were any visible before the water change) nor how much waste had accumulated on the bottom.  Though the shrimp seem much more active today and are eating everything, and I can still see some babies, I'm really concerned about what killed the other two shrimp, and I really don't want to lose any more.  
 
My question is, can detritus worms be harmful in any way?  And what do you think killed off the two shrimp?  I did an ammonia test before changing the tank water and it read 0—I did a strip test as well but I don't remember its exact readings, but I don't think it was much different from what I have now.
 
I ask about the worms because I have no experience with them, and I read that there are strains of other worms that can attach to the bellies of invertebrates and eat the shrimp alive, as well as eat babies and shrimp eggs.  I would also like to get rid of them if at all possible (or at least the visible ones) for the sake of aesthetics.  I do have a small endler/guppy fry in a separate tank that I was contemplating adding to eat the worms, but I really don't want it to eat any baby shrimp or shrimp eggs if you think it would?  He's about an inch long from nose to the tip of his tail.  I have a betta as well, but he's very aggressive and I don't want him eating the babies.
 
 
Any help is very appreciated.

 

[jag51186]

How hard is "hard water"?? That's fairly important to know for shrimp, because if they don't have the correct minerals they can't molt properly and end up dying. But, this usually occurs with softer water, because it lacks the necessary minerals. 40 ppm KH isn't high at all, and corresponds fairly well with your 6.8 pH. Also makes me wonder if your water is actually hard or not, as hard water tends to correspond to a higher pH. You can check your local water authorities' website to find this info.
 
Shrimp are pretty sensitive to ammonia and nitrites, so if the 0.5 nitrite is legitimate, that could be part of your issue. But, you shouldn't have 0 nitrates unless your tank is either heavily planted or not completely cycled. The strip tests are fairly notorious for being inaccurate, so I would recommend getting an API master freshwater kit, and using that to test your parameters. 
 
Unfortunately, I have no idea what the worms are. And, tannins shouldn't be harmful at all, they are actually fairly beneficial in most systems, though I'm not sure how fish handle them.
 
P.S. Are you sure they were dead shrimp and not just molts??
 
P.P.S. I'm still a novice, so hopefully one of the masters chimes in too!

 

[markanthany]

How hard is "hard water"?? That's fairly important to know for shrimp, because if they don't have the correct minerals they can't molt properly and end up dying. But, this usually occurs with softer water, because it lacks the necessary minerals. 40 ppm KH isn't high at all, and corresponds fairly well with your 6.8 pH. Also makes me wonder if your water is actually hard or not, as hard water tends to correspond to a higher pH. You can check your local water authorities' website to find this info.
 
Shrimp are pretty sensitive to ammonia and nitrites, so if the 0.5 nitrite is legitimate, that could be part of your issue. But, you shouldn't have 0 nitrates unless your tank is either heavily planted or not completely cycled. The strip tests are fairly notorious for being inaccurate, so I would recommend getting an API master freshwater kit, and using that to test your parameters. 
 
Unfortunately, I have no idea what the worms are. And, tannins shouldn't be harmful at all, they are actually fairly beneficial in most systems, though I'm not sure how fish handle them.
 
P.S. Are you sure they were dead shrimp and not just molts??
 
P.P.S. I'm still a novice, so hopefully one of the masters chimes in too!

 
Thanks for the response! 
 
And yeah, I've already decided to stop fiddling with test strips.

 I may be able to get a liquid API test today, or if not, probably Friday.  I'll see if I can't find out about the water hardness as well, I just feel more comfortable knowing exactly what the parameters are so when something like this happens, I can identify the cause more easily.  I'm glad to know that 40 ppm isn't an issue though, because that's been a stable reading on all of our tanks since start up.  I can say though that I have seen about five molts or more since having them, so I'm going to guess that they are okay there?  Also, the tank is not heavily planted; just some driftwood covered in java moss and two large marimo moss balls.
 
And they were dead shrimp.  Full, colored bodies, belly up on the sand.  

 
I didn't think the tannins were an issue either, I just wanted the tank water clear for the sake of aesthetics, that's why I let it go for a while before doing changes.  I'm glad I decided to clean it yesterday though, because there was a lot more waste lurking in corners than I previously thought, and it's nice to be able to see all of my shrimp now.
 
I'm not sure on the worms, I've only dealt with parasites once in a pea puffer, but after researching for an hour, I am prettttty certain that they are detritus worms and not planaria or nematodes.  I just want to know if they're harmful or not and how to get rid of them—or if they're helpful tucked down into the sand, how to get them to go back down into the sand lol.

 

[StevenF]

I would't worry about  worms or worms.or copepod.  they sometime get delivered with shrimp and they shrimp may feed on them.   Water changes are no more dangerous to shrimp than they are to fish.
 
KH of 40 and a PH of 6.8 is not consistent with hard water.  It is consistent with soft water. Search for your water company on line.  You might be able to find a water quality report.  These water company reports are often very detailed and go way beyond the basic aquarium test kits.  These reports can sometimes can be helpful in determining the cause of the problem.   
 
the 6 in 1 test strips don't test for ammonia.  Do you have separate ammonia test  kit? Also how long has the tank been set up.?  If the tank is new, you may have an ammonia problem.  People have in the past reported zero ammonia with test strips but they didn't realize they had the wrong test kit.  Please make sure you are using your test kit correctly. For Tetra 6 in 1 easy strips (I personally used them and believe they are accurate) put it the water vertically and pull it out vertically and rapidly after no more than 1/2 seocnd in the water.  Also check the  expiration date on the kit.  If it has expired get a new test kit.
 
  
 
   For shrimp the KH (total alkalinity) is probably the best indicator of water being too hard or soft.  if it is at or over 100 I would be concerned. A KH of 40 may be near the lower limit.  I don't know what the exact limits are but I have been using RO water which I have to fertilize to keep the plants alive.   However when I tried shrimp the first 2 groups slowly died because they couldn't molt.  Once I realized that I added a 50/50 mix of calcium carbonate and magnesium carbonate.  Since then I have successfully been able to keep Amano and Flower shrimp. I have also tried blue dream shrimp but my fish keep slowly killing them off.(apparently they are too small from the supplier.  I may have to grow them to full size before adding them to my tank.  Also at least one person has posted on this site had shrimp die because he add a rock he found to his tank and that pushed his KH to very high levels.  

 

[Far_King]

They look like detritus worms to me.
 
I would also look into exactly which water parameters best suit the shrimp you want to keep.  Red Cherry like harder water, pH of 6 to 8 is fine.
Some Crystal shrimp often like very soft water with pretty much a zero hardness which is why I'm using RO for my shrimp tank.
 
This article may help: http/www.fishchannel.com/aquarium-fish/keeping-dwarf-shrimp.aspx

 

[markanthany]

V quoted post below.

 

[markanthany]

I would't worry about  worms or worms.or copepod.  they sometime get delivered with shrimp and they shrimp may feed on them.   Water changes are no more dangerous to shrimp than they are to fish.
 
KH of 40 and a PH of 6.8 is not consistent with hard water.  It is consistent with soft water. Search for your water company on line.  You might be able to find a water quality report.  These water company reports are often very detailed and go way beyond the basic aquarium test kits.  These reports can sometimes can be helpful in determining the cause of the problem.   
 
the 6 in 1 test strips don't test for ammonia.  Do you have separate ammonia test  kit? Also how long has the tank been set up.?  If the tank is new, you may have an ammonia problem.  People have in the past reported zero ammonia with test strips but they didn't realize they had the wrong test kit.  Please make sure you are using your test kit correctly. For Tetra 6 in 1 easy strips (I personally used them and believe they are accurate) put it the water vertically and pull it out vertically and rapidly after no more than 1/2 seocnd in the water.  Also check the  expiration date on the kit.  If it has expired get a new test kit.
 
  
 
   For shrimp the KH (total alkalinity) is probably the best indicator of water being too hard or soft.  if it is at or over 100 I would be concerned. A KH of 40 may be near the lower limit.  I don't know what the exact limits are but I have been using RO water which I have to fertilize to keep the plants alive.   However when I tried shrimp the first 2 groups slowly died because they couldn't molt.  Once I realized that I added a 50/50 mix of calcium carbonate and magnesium carbonate.  Since then I have successfully been able to keep Amano and Flower shrimp. I have also tried blue dream shrimp but my fish keep slowly killing them off.(apparently they are too small from the supplier.  I may have to grow them to full size before adding them to my tank.  Also at least one person has posted on this site had shrimp die because he add a rock he found to his tank and that pushed his KH to very high levels.  

 
 

They look like detritus worms to me.
 
I would also look into exactly which water parameters best suit the shrimp you want to keep.  Red Cherry like harder water, pH of 6 to 8 is fine.
Some Crystal shrimp often like very soft water with pretty much a zero hardness which is why I'm using RO for my shrimp tank.
 
This article may help: http/www.fishchannel.com/aquarium-fish/keeping-dwarf-shrimp.aspx

 
So I woke up to find a cherry shrimp dead in the tank this morning.  

  Although on closer inspection, I can see that a white spot/band had formed along the arch of the shrimp's back, and from what I've read, that's an indication that it was getting ready to molt, and possibly failed to molt and that is why it died.  (I didn't check the others for this when they died so I'm not sure if this is the same thing that killed them or not.)  However, if it isn't the same cause of death as to why the last two died which was before the water change, then I'm not sure what it is.  But, if I can help get the water hardness to a more acceptable level to ensure that that isn't the problem, then I'd really like to.
 
I just did a quick search on our water quality and it says that we have 'moderately hard' water at 159 mg or 9.3 grains of calcium carbonate per gallon.  So far I can't find anything any more detailed on it than that.
 
And I should have done more research before hand, but I didn't know that cherry and crystals preferred different water parameters.  

  So far I have lost two crystals and one cherry.  *Edited, I misunderstood the information from before.  From what it sounds like, I just need to get a liquid test kit as soon as I can to really find out my readings.  It doesn't make sense for the ph to be 6.8 and KH to be 40 when the water is hard-very hard on the same strip, as well as voiced as 'moderately hard' by our local water readings.  This is a correct assessment, yes?  I'm wondering now if I should try to add something to increase water hardness, or maybe the hardness is fine and I'm skimming over a different problem all together.  And to note, I kept a really careful eye on the temperature from yesterday and through the night to this morning, and the temperature has stayed right at 74 F, so no fluctuations there.
 
But if you don't think that the water change did anything to hurt them (I feel bad because I really can't remember what the water readings were before the water change) could it help to add in some API quick start?  It says you can add it after a large water change and that it will dissolve nitrites, but I know that in some cases chemical additives/medicine can be lethal to invertebrates.  Since my nitrite reading was a little iffy on whether or not it was at 0 or .5ppm, should I do a small water change or add in some quick start?  Or both?  Also, I used a liquid API ammonia test on the tank, it was at zero.  (The tank was allowed to cycle for a month before adding the shrimp, previously had more plants in it and fish.)
 
Also, the tank is not heavily planted, it just has a lot of moss confined to a piece of driftwood and two large moss balls.  The only rocks I have in there are small black river rocks, nothing with mineral deposits on it.  I now have 9 shrimp in this 5 gallon.  Should I add in some more plants?  Could that help destress them and perhaps help maintain better water quality?
 
 
Thanks everyone.
 
*Update: Just did another strip test.
nitrate: 0
nitrite: 0 - 0.5ppm
gh: 150ppm
kh: 40ppm
ph: 6.2
 
??? I have no clue.
 
Did another ammonia test and found the color to be between 0 and .25ppm (from the dead shrimp?), so I went ahead and did a 10% water change in hopes of helping that and any nitrites I may have.  I also found a fresh molt on the tree, looked very clean, so now I just feel very confused.  Could the hardness still be off even though some shrimp are still molting?  I'm going to get a liquid test kit as soon as I can.  Blah.

 

[StevenF]

 
I just did a quick search on our water quality and it says that we have 'moderately hard' water at 159 mg or 9.3 grains of calcium carbonate per gallon.  So far I can't find anything any more detailed on it than that.
 
And I should have done more research before hand, but I didn't know that cherry and crystals preferred different water parameters.  

  So far I have lost two crystals and one cherry. 

You PH and KH are generally consistant with soft water.  Key word is generally.  It is probably possible to get low PH / KH water in hard water  I have never seen it but it appears that that is what you have.   I went on line and did find a converter that converted mg and gains to ppm.  Your test kit is reporting water hardness correctly.  And right now your water hardness is the only thing that stands out.  
 
The site below and the converter below indicates your water may be too hard;
 
 
http/www.cactus2000.de/uk/unit/masswas.shtml
 
http/www.discobee.com/blogs/news/17030569-dwarf-shrimp-water-parameters
 
The way i see it you don't have many options if it is the water
 

1. Add calcium and magnesium to your aquarium.  In my experience it doesn't strongly increase GH but I could be wrong.  You could purchase calcium and magnesium carbonate (I got my carbonate from Amazon.com) or you could add sea shells or snail shells (they are mainly calcium and Magnesium).  Hopefully that would help the shrimp molt and adapt to your water without making it excessively hard.  
2. Mix RO or Distilled water and mix that with your tap water.  That would soften it but would still require adding calcium and magnesium.  Not if you just use RO or distilled water without tap  water you would have to add micro nutrients  so that any plants or moss you have  will not die.

 

[Far_King]

I don't suppose there's any sort of filtration system already attached to the water in your home?  some block of flats or something that has a centralised filter or anything like that?  It could be that the water has a limited buffering capability if some of the nutrients and minerals are stripped out.  I'm just hypothesising.
 
I'm inclined to agree with Steven that RO may be your best option, and you would definitely need to re-mineralise the water if you went down that route.
 
In regards to your ammonia reading, it's unlikely that a dead shrimp would cause a reading unless it was left for a few days.

 

[markanthany]

Thanks again, everyone.
 
I am happy to report that this morning there are no more dead shrimp (as of now) and three of the larger babies are still alive that I can see, swimming around and picking the moss balls clean.
 
 

 

 
I just did a quick search on our water quality and it says that we have 'moderately hard' water at 159 mg or 9.3 grains of calcium carbonate per gallon.  So far I can't find anything any more detailed on it than that.
 
And I should have done more research before hand, but I didn't know that cherry and crystals preferred different water parameters.  

  So far I have lost two crystals and one cherry. 

You PH and KH are generally consistant with soft water.  Key word is generally.  It is probably possible to get low PH / KH water in hard water  I have never seen it but it appears that that is what you have.   I went on line and did find a converter that converted mg and gains to ppm.  Your test kit is reporting water hardness correctly.  And right now your water hardness is the only thing that stands out.  
 
The site below and the converter below indicates your water may be too hard;
 
 
http/www.cactus2000.de/uk/unit/masswas.shtml
 
http/www.discobee.com/blogs/news/17030569-dwarf-shrimp-water-parameters
 
The way i see it you don't have many options if it is the water
 

1. Add calcium and magnesium to your aquarium.  In my experience it doesn't strongly increase GH but I could be wrong.  You could purchase calcium and magnesium carbonate (I got my carbonate from Amazon.com) or you could add sea shells or snail shells (they are mainly calcium and Magnesium).  Hopefully that would help the shrimp molt and adapt to your water without making it excessively hard.  
2. Mix RO or Distilled water and mix that with your tap water.  That would soften it but would still require adding calcium and magnesium.  Not if you just use RO or distilled water without tap  water you would have to add micro nutrients  so that any plants or moss you have  will not die.

 

 
Thank you very much for all the information!  I guess I do have an odd situation then.  If I'm understanding you correctly, do I essentially have hard water without the minerals the shrimp need?  I did find a fresh, clean molt yesterday but I'm not doubting that there could still be an issue with the water parameters and killing the shrimp during molting, because that appears to be how the last shrimp died.  But, good news, I have a TON of abandoned snail shells from my pea puffer tank.  I could certainly transfer those to the shrimp tank.  My question is, if I add the snail shells or calcium and magnesium carbonate to increase mineral content, do I still need to try and mix in RO water to soften it?  Or would the added minerals make the current hardness acceptable for the shrimp?
 
 
 

I don't suppose there's any sort of filtration system already attached to the water in your home?  some block of flats or something that has a centralised filter or anything like that?  It could be that the water has a limited buffering capability if some of the nutrients and minerals are stripped out.  I'm just hypothesising.
 
I'm inclined to agree with Steven that RO may be your best option, and you would definitely need to re-mineralise the water if you went down that route.
 
In regards to your ammonia reading, it's unlikely that a dead shrimp would cause a reading unless it was left for a few days.

 
I live in an old apartment complex that used to be a hotel, so I really have no idea what kind of water filters are in place here.  I could try to ask the landlord, but I don't believe they'd be particularly helpful or even know.

 

[jag51186]

That converter is super handy!! So is that shrimp site...bookmarked! Having said this, your hardness could be contributing to the bee's dying...but the cherries should be fine in that level of hardness. I've heard that cherries are basically good in whatever water as long as it has at least some level of hardness to it. Also, if you add any Calcium/Magnesium it is just going to increase your hardness...these are the products used in remineralizers for RO water. 
 
One possibility is that your hardness is coming from the wrong mineral, this goes beyond my level of knowledge, but I think you could have a lot of either Calcium or Magnesium and maybe that is causing the problem...like they are deficient in the other one.
 
Any new copper pipes in your complex recently??
 
I'd still like to know for sure that there are no nitrites...I've read that shrimp are pretty sensitive to both ammonia and nitrites.

 

[StevenF]

 
 
Thank you very much for all the information!  I guess I do have an odd situation then.  If I'm understanding you correctly, do I essentially have hard water without the minerals the shrimp need?

That is my guess. 

 
 
, if I add the snail shells or calcium and magnesium carbonate to increase mineral content, do I still need to try and mix in ROwater to soften it?  Or would the added minerals make the current hardness acceptable for the shrimp?

I am hopping just adding the minerals will be enough.  If that doesn't work then then look into RO water.  Without knowing the minerals in your water I really cannot say.  But even if you found a detailed report i probably would still be guessing.

 
 
I live in an old apartment complex that used to be a hotel, so I really have no idea what kind of water filters are in place here.  I could try to ask the landlord, but I don't believe they'd be particularly helpful or even know.

Most likely all they have are water screens to catch debries or filters to remove silt.  The only filters that can remove minerals are DI and RO filters but they are costly and are seldom used to filter all the water in am apartment complex.

 
 
One possibility is that your hardness is coming from the wrong mineral, this goes beyond my level of knowledge, but I think you could have a lot of either Calcium or Magnesium and maybe that is causing the problem...like they are deficient in the other one.

Magnesium and Calcium are soluble and have similar solubility  in water but it doesn't take much to saturate the water with it.  I have been adding a carbonate powder to my aquarium.  It only takes a very small pinch per liter of water  of it to saturate the water with the excess accumulating in the substrate of the aquarium.  I don't think it would be possible to have a lot of calcium with little magnesium.  Both are common in the soil.  In any case adding shells to the water would get the magnesium and calcium levels up to where the shrimp would prefer them.  Note after a successful molt leave the molt in your aquarium for few days to a week.  After a week they typically dissolve.  Always remove dead shrimp and fish promptly to avoid ammonia and other problems. 

 

[Far_King]

In your situation if the water is that suspect I would go down the RO and re-mineralisation route.  Unless you can find a friendly science institution or water specialist that would be willing to thoroughly test your water and find out exactly what's in it.

 

[markanthany]

Thanks again for all the replies, guys!
 
I'm currently waiting on the test kit I ordered online so I can find out what my real readings are.  So far, no more dead shrimp and still have the babies swimming around.  Found another nice molt in the tank today.  The water looks clearer now as well.
 
I'm thinking that I'll test the water when the kit comes in and then if the readings still seem off, I may try the calcium and magnesium carbonate like StevenF suggested.  I feel a bit wary of adding any if it could be too much though.  Do you think the water hardness is alright if they're continuing to molt?

 

[StevenF]

 
 
Do you think the water hardness is alright if they're continuing to molt?

it is encouraging, but in this hobby there is often little certainty.