Cycling Questions

[Silencedogood]

You don't need much of this stuff. A small handful in the filter or just sitting in the tank will usually stabilise a small tank. If the pH continues to drop rapidly after you have added some, add a bit more.

This is for my 30 gal.

Could this be from having soft water?

 

[Silencedogood]

My dad used to keep Oscars and he never had any problems with gh and ph. Does that depend on the different type of fish?

I had this ph problem prior to all of the ick problems and I'm not sure why because when I kept goldfish, I never noticed any ph problems. Are livebearers just more sensitive to ph and gh?

 

[Silencedogood]

I'm in touch with an aquatic specialist and he said that the gh should be around 120 ppm and that it shouldn't be a problem to keep livebearers and tetras together. He also said that a 50% water change will improve ph matters. Will water changes help?

 

[Byron]

My dad used to keep Oscars and he never had any problems with gh and ph. Does that depend on the different type of fish?

I had this problem prior to all of the ick problems and I'm not sure why because when I kept goldfish, I never noticed any ph problems. Are livebearers just more sensitive to ph and gh?

Yes to your question "does that depend on the different type of fish?" and here's why.

The oceans are all the same with respect to hardness (GH) and pH. So all marine fish are physiologically designed to function in such water. Fresh water is very different, and I will try to explain.

As water evaporates from the oceans and condenses into clouds, it loses all the minerals and becomes what we may term pure water. Water in its pure form does not exist in nature [by which I mean water on the surface of the earth as in watercourses, lakes, groundwater]; it is a powerful solvent, meaning a substance that easily dissolves other substances to create a solution. As rain falls, it picks up many gasses and particulate matter, and it continues to do this as it passes through the ground. Natural water values therefore vary with respect to hardness and pH because the water acquires specific properties from the landscape. Water flowing over or through rock will assimilate minerals from the rock, becoming what we term “hard” water. Water flowing through soils that contain organic matter will be “soft” because the organics bind with and thus remove minerals while creating acids that enter the water. The pH is largely the result of the hardness as well as the amount of carbon dioxide dissolved in the water.

As each freshwater fish species has evolved over thousands of years, their physiology has adjusted to the water values that occur in their respective habitat. We refer to these values as water parameters, and they include hardness, pH and temperature; each of these has an impact on fish. While many fish species appear to be somewhat adaptable, their physiology can be negatively affected if the parameters are outside the fish’s natural preference. Providing suitable water parameters in the aquarium is therefore an important aspect of providing an environment that is less stressful—and this directly relates to healthier fish.

Pure water has a pH of 7.0 which is neutral. A pH above 7.0 is termed basic (used to be alkaline but that is a confusing term) while a pH below 7.0 is acidic. The water becomes more basic the higher the pH is above 7, and more acidic the lower the pH below 7. No water in nature has a neutral pH, it is either acidic or basic to some degree because of the above described solvency.

Livebearers occur in Central America and Mexico. The fresh water throughout this area, generally speaking, is moderately hard with a basic pH. The fish are thus designed to function in such water, and they assimilate the minerals (primarily calcium and magnesium) from their surrounding water directly into the bloodstream. So the fish must have moderately hard water in order to function, and if they do not they will slowly weaken and die. Along the way they may contract various health issues that they should normally be able to deal with, except the lack of mineral prevents their metabolism and physiology from functioning properly as nature intended.

Soft water fish also assimilate water into their bloodstream continually. This water must be soft. If the water is on the hard side, the minerals again will be assimilated into the fish, but now they will start causing internal problems for the fish, and here again the fish will weaken and may or may not die, depending upon the species and the level of hardness. One detriment which is proven by tests is calcium blockage of the kidneys of soft water species, and studies in the 1980's with cardinal tetras determined that the fish's lifespan was directly related to the GH of the water when it was harder than what the species prefers. The higher the GH, meaning more mineral in the tank water, the faster the calcium built up and killed the fish. In very soft and acidic water, cardinal tetras can easily live beyond 10 years, but they never reach this age in water that is harder, and the age is relative to the GH and somewhat pH also.

You mentioned Oscars; this species has a preferred GH range of soft to moderately hard (say 5 to 19 dGH), with a pH range of slightly acidic to slightly basic (say 6.0 to 8.0). Livebearers need moderately hard or harder GH (10 dGH absolute minimum, and higher) with a basic (above 7.0) pH. Your water was assumed earlier in this thread to be on the soft side, with an acidic pH. So Oscars will probably be fine, but livebearers will never manage and will slowly (or sometimes more rapidly) weaken and die. The weakening makes them more susceptible to other health issues like parasites, bacteria, fungus, etc, so the actual death may be due to one of these, but in fact the actual cause is the water parameters.

It is much easier to select fish species suited to your source water's parameters, rather than trying to adjust the parameters. It can be done, but there are risks along the way, expense, and issues preparing water in advance of water changes, etc.

Hope this helps in understanding the significance of water parameters for fish. Because of the physiology of fish, this is significantly more crucial than the comparable environmental issues for any terrestrial animal, generally speaking. The aquatic environment and the life processes of fish is interconnected in ways that are so great it is difficult to actually comprehend them, but they are crucial.

 

[Byron]

I'm in touch with an aquatic specialist and he said that the gh should be around 120 ppm and that it shouldn't be a problem to keep livebearers and tetras together. He also said that a 50% water change will improve ph matters. Will water changes help?

Keep in mind what I posted above, post #19. I will try to answer your present question with that background in mind.

We do not know yet what the GH of your source water is, so that must be ascertained; I don't know if the "aquatic specialist" was someone from your water authority or not. But when you know the GH of your tap water, post it.

Going on from there, you can add calcareous minerals to the water to increase the GH (and pH simultaneously), or use substances like the rift lake preparation Colin mentioned earlier. But keep in mind that this (if sufficient) will provide the necessary water parameters for the livebearers, but the soft water species will then be disadvantaged. This brings me to the keeping livebearers and tetras together.

This may or may not be possible, as it depends upon the individual species and the GH and pH of your water. Some species are more sensitive to GH than others, some have absolutely no adaptation ability while others do, up to a point anyway.

Water changes will restore the water parameters in the tank closer to those of the source water, should these differ. Water changes also "clean" the tank water in a sense by removing various pollutants that can affect GH and pH. Now, understand that all of this is relative to the initial GH and pH and KH (carbonate hardness), and the tank volume, fish load, plants, feeding, etc. In other words, there is no hard and fast rule.

Which again brings me to what I said at the end of my previous post--it is always safer and easier to select fish suited to your source water.

 

[Silencedogood]

Your water was assumed earlier in this thread to be on the soft side, with an acidic pH. So Oscars will probably be fine, but livebearers will never manage and will slowly (or sometimes more rapidly) weaken and die. The weakening makes them more susceptible to other health issues like parasites, bacteria, fungus, etc, so the actual death may be due to one of these, but in fact the actual cause is the water parameters.

Could this be why after a month of getting my livebearers they I lost seven of them to ick?

I still have 3 platies and they seem to be doing OKAY right now. But yesterday the ph was 6.6 and today its 6.4. Its strange though, because I have also a 10 gal quarantine tank and I use the same water and the ph is 7.0. I'm not sure why. Also, for both tanks, the gh has been around 75 ppm. Could the size of the tank effect anything? And would a 50% water change help at all?

 

[Silencedogood]

I don't know if the "aquatic specialist" was someone from your water authority or not.

An aquatic specialist that works at Petco.

 

[Byron]

Could this be why after a month of getting my livebearers they I lost seven of them to ick?

Possibly. Newly acquired fish are obviously under severe stress from the store tank, being netted, bagged and transport, then into a new environment when you get home. Adding more stress from inappropriate water parameters can push them over the edge. They are carrying ich from the store (this is very common) and might not succumb if they are placed in a good environment but if not, as with very soft water, this could be more stress than they can withstand. Stress is the reason behind 95% of all fish disease issues. The pathogens are present, but the stress means the fish do not have the strength in their immune system to fight them off.

I still have 3 platies and they seem to be doing OKAY right now. But yesterday the ph was 6.6 and today its 6.4. Its strange though, because I have also a 10 gal quarantine tank and I use the same water and the ph is 7.0. I'm not sure why. Also, for both tanks, the gh has been around 75 ppm. Could the size of the tank effect anything? And would a 50% water change help at all?

Water parameters and conditions can vary from one tank to another, even though you are using the same water. I have 8 tanks in my fish room, and the pH for example is below 5 in a couple of them, around 5 to 6 in others, and in the low 6's in another. Yet all receive a 60% water change once each week, all have the same substrate (play sand) and chunks of wood, all have a comparable fish load, all are planted, all get the same fish foods and plant additive, lighting is the same and the duration is equal. Each aquarium is an individual ecosystem. A different substrate or calcareous rock can affect parameters in addition to the foregoing list of things.

Regular substantial water changes will work to maintain stability, which is important. But the pH is going to lower naturally because obviously your source water is very low in mineral and thus pH buffering capacity. Same as mine, which is even lower. Provided you select fish that require these conditions, and then do not overload or overfeed, etc, there will be no problem. But fish like livebearers that must have harder water than you have will not bee healthy or long-lived.

 

[Byron]

An aquatic specialist that works at Petco.

Obviously I have no idea of the level of knowledge of this individual, but I would never accept the advice of an employee in any fish store unless I personally knew their knowledge level, and I would take into account their advice to other customers I might overhear and which I might myself have knowledge about. And I would say that chain pet stores tend not to have knowledgeable staff; none of them here do that is a certainty. Your store may be different, but when it comes to advice on fish species, habitat, behaviours, water, etc, always do your own research before acquiring. And do not be led into buying more additives/chemicals to "fix" a problem. Every substance added to the water gets inside the fish naturally, into the bloodstream and carried to the internal organs; additives must be kept as minimal as possible because this allows the fish's metabolism to function better with less effort so the fish will be healthier and less stressed and better able to deal with what may occur in the future.

 

[Silencedogood]

But the pH is going to lower naturally because obviously your source water is very low in mineral and thus pH buffering capacity.

My tap water ph is 7.4ish. Could the water have an neutral ph and still be soft? Or would it definitely be hard water with a neutral ph? Also, why would the ph drop after I add the tap water to the tank if the tap water ph is 7.4?

Does the amount of fish in a tank make the water more or less acidic?

How long can snails handle salt? I added salt yesterday and the ph is more stable; yesterday it was 6.4 and today it is close to 6.8. I was previously adding ph up, but it actually didn't work very well. (Maybe because it is expired?)
The snail seems to be doing fine so far with the addition of salt.

 

[Byron]

My tap water ph is 7.4ish. Could the water have an neutral ph and still be soft? Or would it definitely be hard water with a neutral ph? Also, why would the ph drop after I add the tap water to the tank if the tap water ph is 7.4?

Water chemistry is a complex issue. I have separated your three paragraphs in order to respond to each, but these three issues are all related so the answer to one is connected to the others and you need to keep all this in mind.

GH is the level of dissolved hard minerals, primarily calcium and magnesium, in the water. There is also KH, the carbonate hardness or Alkalinity. Carbonate hardness is the measure of carbonate and bicarbonate ions; carbonates and bicarbonates are the salts of carbonic acid. It is sometimes referred to as Alkalinity [not to be confused with alkaline as in pH, something very different]. Carbonate hardness is also measured most often in either degrees (dKH) or parts per million (ppm). KH is normally tied to the GH, since carbonate minerals include limestone, dolomite, calcium and calcite. Mollusc shells and coral are primarily calcium. Carbonate hardness is sometimes called “temporary hardness” because it can be removed from water by boiling which precipitates out the carbonates. KH has some direct impact on fish; but it also “buffers” the pH by binding to additions of acids or bases, keeping the pH stable—or more correctly, preventing it from changing—and the higher the KH, the greater the buffering capacity. I'll come back to this below.

While pH is closely related to the GH and KH there are other factors that can affect the pH. I tried to explain this previously when I said that the pH in my tanks vary from tank to tank even though all have the same source water. The harder the water (higher GH) the more basic (above 7.0) the pH will be. Generally, very soft water will have a lower pH. But there are other factors. In areas with soft water and an acidic pH, the water authority often adds various substances to the water to increase (raise) pH in order to prevent erosion of pipes. This might explain the basic (above 7.0) pH of your soft (75 ppm GH) water.

The amount of CO2 in the water also impacts pH. When you test tap water for pH, you must ensure any CO2 is out-gassed. CO2 in the water will produce carbonic acid which in turn results in a lower (more acidic) pH. You can outgas the CO2 by allowing a glass of water to sit fgor 24 hours before testing. Very brisk agitation of the water can also outygas the CO2, though sometimes this may do something of the reverse. But outgassed tap water will test more accurately for pH. But again, this pH may be affected by substances being added by the water authority, or it may be natural depending upon the source.

The KH acts as a buffer, preventing pH fluctuations. The higher the KH, the stronger the buffering capacity. So once in the aquarium, the GH, KH and pH interact, and are influenced by other factors. Once the aquarium becomes biologically established, the pH should remain fairly stable. Organics work to acidify the water, which brings me to your second question so I will continue this below.

Does the amount of fish in a tank make the water more or less acidic?

Yes, but this is subject again to the GH and KH especially. The organics that accumulate from fish waste and other organic sources will break down. Bacteria in the substrate primarily but also the filter perform this important function. CO2 and ammonia are produced by this decomposition. The CO2 produces carbonic acid which makes the water acidic and the pH naturally lowers. But again, other factors are involved. Primarily the KH which can prevent this pH lowering, up to the point where the buffering capacity is reached. I will refer back to this below on the issue of chemicals to adjust the pH.

How long can snails handle salt? I added salt yesterday and the ph is more stable; yesterday it was 6.4 and today it is close to 6.8. I was previously adding ph up, but it actually didn't work very well. (Maybe because it is expired?)
The snail seems to be doing fine so far with the addition of salt.

Never add pH adjusting chemicals to an aquarium with fish, never. As I explained above, other factors like KH are working to maintain the pH, and this use of pH Up immediately raises the pH, often too suddenly for fish, and then the natural buffering may again lower it. Fluctuating pH is dangerous. This is why it didn't seem to work. Do not use it.

Why are you adding salt? No freshwater aquarium should ever have salt added except as a treatment for a specific problem (ich for example). Salt does harm freshwater fish, some more than others. And yes, salt will kill invertebrates, depending upon how much and the invertebrate (snails, shrimp).

Summary. Leave the GH, KH and pH alone. The aquarium will sort these out and attempts to adjust any of them can be fatal.

 

[Silencedogood]

Why are you adding salt? No freshwater aquarium should ever have salt added except as a treatment for a specific problem (ich for example). Salt does harm freshwater fish, some more than others. And yes, salt will kill invertebrates, depending upon how much and the invertebrate (snails, shrimp).

Because I was told that certain freshwater fish (such as livebearers) need a little bit of salt in the water in order to stay healthy. I added 1/3 of a dose.

I'm guessing I shouldn't add a ph buffer? By the way, my tank KH was almost 0 ppm.

In areas with soft water and an acidic pH, the water authority often adds various substances to the water to increase (raise) pH in order to prevent erosion of pipes. This might explain the basic (above 7.0) pH of your soft (75 ppm GH) water.

My tank GH is 75 ppm. I don't know my tap water GH yet.

 

[Byron]

My tank GH is 75 ppm. I don't know my tap water GH yet.

Tap water and tank water will not vary much in GH unless you specifically target GH. By target I mean using calcareous rock or substrate that dissolves mineral into the water. You could check with your municipal water authority website, they may list water data and look for general or total hardness which is GH. Get the number and the unit of measurement they use (mg/l, ppm, dH or whatever) so we can be certain.

I was told that certain freshwater fish (such as livebearers) need a little bit of salt in the water in order to stay healthy. I added 1/3 of a dose.

Bad advice. I assume this was the "aquatics expert" again. All freshwater fish are internally affected detrimentally by salt. Livebearers fare better than soft water species would, but they still do get affected and they do not need it. Salt can bee useful in treating certain health issues, but never should it be added generally. It will not make the fish more healthy, quite the opposite; it can be stressful depending upon levels and species, and it absolutely never prevents anything as the dose is not sufficient to be effective on parasites or whatever. Water changes will remove salt over time.

I'm guessing I shouldn't add a ph buffer? By the way, my tank KH was almost 0 ppm.

No. Your tap water is very soft, that is obvious here (though the number if you can get it will confirm). The pH will be on the acidic side. Select fish species suited to this water, and you will have healthier fish and make your life and theirs much easier. Weekly partial water changes of 50 to 65% of the tank volume will also help maintain stability.

You can go down the road of raising GH and KH, and pH simultaneously, with calcareous substrates or additives. But this is another set of issues. It seems to me that you are getting into some issues here and losing fish through bad advice before coming to this forum. This is a scientific hobby, and while it is possible to be successful without specialist training, there are some basics that must be understood or the fish simply will not be healthy or live very long. We have sorted out your water, now you must accept it and move ahead. Don't add substances to the water except for water conditioner at water changes. Plant fertilizers can be used, minimally, but that is it except for medications that may be needed for a specific disease. But avoiding additives to the water will help keep the fish healthy and avoid sickness.

 

[Silencedogood]

Bad advice. I assume this was the "aquatics expert" again.

A different one, but yes. Actually, he stressed the importance of salt in the tank at all times. (Unless you have snails, etc.)

Thank you so much for all of your help. Much appreciated!