Cycling Or Not Cycling?

Hm... This is a bit confusing for me now. From what I understand brown algae is diatoms that actually need more light as opposed to other types of algae and it us almost always present in new tanks. I'm (yet) to see any significant problems with any other type of algae.

As for my set up - I have 2x35w juwel lights with reflectors running 12 hours a day. The ratio seems to be 1.8 in my case, which I thought would be on the low side for a planted tank. That plus my understanding of high light requirements to keep diatoms down led me to having it up for 12 hours( while it was 8-9 during first week when there was no brown algae visible ). I can certainly reduce that and probably remove reflectors if needed if I knew that was going to help...

Ultimately if that is a problem in every new tank - shall I need to wait until it matured before I can say that I have issues with something or it's best to do certain things right away?

Algae is a very broad term for a wide range of organisms. Each one has its own causes, and treatments. One so-called "algae" is actually cyanobacteria, but is commonly referred to as Blue-Green Algae (BGA). All algae benefits from excess light. Ammonia can lead to some algae. Fluctuating nutrients can lead to others, depending on what nutrient is fluctuating, which algae will show up. I mentioned earlier that I had a bit of BBA (Black Beard Algae) from fluctuating CO2 and low flow. Increasing flow and decreasing water change frequency stabilized the CO2, and the BBA disappeared.


New tanks often suffer, because of the connection between light and ammonia. New tanks (except for those properly planted for a silent cycle, not recommended for beginners, or that went through a fishless cycle) often have ammonia issues as well. The light plus the ammonia leads to algae. There are very different types of algae, but as waterdrop points out, too much light is always culprit number one to finger in these cases.


He was dead on accurate. You have a lot of light. The wattage isn't so much the issue. The duration most definitely is a problem. Fish don't need light, so the light is only there for you to view the fish and for the plants to survive. But, too much light is also bad. You need to cut your hours back. I would say to cut is all the way back to 8 hours. Choose the 8 hours that you are going to see the tank the most, so that you can enjoy it. There's no sense having the lights on the tank while you are at work all day. The fish don't care and you can enjoy the tank with the lights on in the evening. Personally, my lights are on from about 3:00pm to 10:00pm.



As far as your amount of wattage for the tank - there are a lot of things that go into this. First, the wattage isn't actually as important as the lumens, and the amount of lumens put out isn't as important as the amount of lumens that actually reaches your plants. Ultimately though, an underwater lumen sensor is rather expensive and isn't a necessity on an on-going basis so it is a bit of luxury item for a hobbyist. Professionals who set-up planted tanks for high paying clients would be stupid not to have one, but for the individual, just being more vigilant about the health of your plants is the way to go. So, we fall back on the Watts/gallon ratio. There are different levels of light and they match up with different plants. There are plants that require high light (meaning high W/g ratio, over 2W/g) all the way down to low light (less than 1W/g). You need to have a balance between the light output and the plants you are growing. If you have high light plants under low light, they will generally just break down and die (melt, as it is called). Your light is moderately high, and with 12 hours of duration, I can see why your plants have grown so much. You need to ID your plants. You need to know exactly what plants you are dealing with so that you know what type of light and care they really need. Take some pictures and post them either here or in the planted section.



(For myself, my tank has just 28 Watts, it is a tall tank (24 inches), but 56 gallons. I have less than 0.5W/g. That means I can only have very low level light plants. They grow but fairly slowly, the exception to that is my anacharis. It still grows long, but not very full. The plants have become much narrower than when I bought them... also known as leggy in the plant world. If I were growing tomatoes, I'd worry about it. But, since the water column holds them up, they are fine that way.) The rest of my plants are very slow growing, low light plants. Java fern, Amazon Sword, Anubias. These plants will grow in any condition, but are just fine under low light with a very slow growth rate.

Here is a link to the very best source of information on algae I've found.
 
First, I gotta say - I'm very impressed with the amount of thoughts and details in the above reply, eagle! Much appreciated!

As for the problem at hand, I've adjusted the lighting to 7 hours ( may probably switch it on for 15-20min in the morning for the feeding as well).

I've tried and googled pictures of plants and so far I think I have:

- 2 bunches of Fanwort (with ~20 stems in total), growing fast
- Tropical Hornwort (~14 stems), also growing fast
- Some sort of a Sword (or Amazon, not exactly Amazon Sword though), this one struggling with algae
- Green Vallis Spiralis
- I can't identify red plant I have that currently is half eaten by something: solid stems with narrow pointy leaves

The other three I'm still working on, but I plan to visit my local LFS over the weekend to get some more shrimp and I'll write down the exact names (as I got them from there in the first place).

On the other topic - my ammonia and nitrites are still zero, nitrates back up to 10. And I've also checked my nitrates in tap water and its more like 15 actually when compared side by side with the tank water.
 
Slow growing plants (like the sword) can get covered in algae. It needs to be removed, or else the plant could suffer from a lack of light getting to the actual plant.


On the topic of nitrates, did you complete a water change recently? Your nitrates seemed to have increased, which could only happen due to bacteria cycling through the ammonia, or by the water change adding some more to the tank, since tap has more nitrates than the tank. I'd be careful about the ammonia when you drop the light. Less light will mean less photosynthesis (by both the plants and the algae) which could lead to an ammonia spike. Just keep an eye on it. If the ammonia comes up at anything other than zero complete a PWC to lower the ammonia back down to trace levels.
 
No, I haven't done a water change since the weekend. I'll see tonight how it would be looking after shortened light time and post here.
 
Knock your lighting down to 5 hours and do not consider getting any fish to solve the algae issue, that is not the answer. However! If your local shop stocks apple snails, i can highly recommend a couple of them to chomp away the diatoms. They are very cheap and very easy to move around should the time come when you dont want them any more. Quite facinating little creatures to watch too!
 
I suppose I can reduce the lighting further and will consider the snails (not a big fan though). So far after the first day with reduced light it looks slightly better for the plants that were affected. Water parameters are unchanged, which is good.

Another quick question - what do I do with those fast growing plants when they reach water surface?
 
It depends on the plant, vallis you can just trim, some of the plants that look like cabomba are best uprooted and the bases cut off then the fresh tops replanted. Google will come up with plenty of info if you can ID the plant.
 
So, after almost a day without light just before I switched it on for the 5 hours I did water test and now do detect traces of ammonia (only by comparing to a test with a bottled water though - the test card is useless in this case). My nitrates are up to 20 now. I'm fairly sure that an the end of the 5 hour period I will not detect any ammonia, so it looks to me like without increasing the bio load things will not move forward. I do plan to do some plant maintenance tomorrow (get rid of an eaten plant and may be trim a few), so that might help and I'll wait until next weekend until get more load into the tank. Thoughts?
 
What do you mean by "move forward"?


Having no ammonia is your ultimate goal. Whether the plants take up the ammonia or it is processed by the plants is basically, inconsequential.

Increasing your bioload, without also increasing your plants will probably end up with you have ammonia in the tank, and put you into a fish-in cycle process. In that process you need to continue daily testing for ammonia and nitrite. In that case, you have to complete a water change whenever you get noticeable ammonia or nitrite (it becomes an emergency when it reaches 0.25ppm or higher, but you should do a water change if there is a tinge of green, even if it isn't as bright as the 0.25ppm threshold.)


I probably wouldn't drop my lights all the way to 5 hours so quickly, personally. I would keep it up around 8 hours, but certainly not the 12 you had before. I'd see how it goes with a shorter photoperiod certainly. But 5 hours is a bit of a drastic change from 12. Algae isn't a bad thing for fish, it is just unsightly. In fact, the algae has probably been helping you a bit with the ammonia.

I wouldn't change anything other than the photoperiod for a week. See how everything responds to that adjustment before doing anything else. You are actually in a pretty nice place right now in terms of your tank. Sure, there is algae, but ultimately, that isn't dangerous to the fish. It's just ugly to see. Deal with the algae by adjusting your photoperiod and see how the ammonia goes from there. If it starts to rise, as you are starting to see, then you need to go into water change fish-in cycle mode. Also as the algae dies, it will also produce ammonia so just take it nice and slow for a little while. There is no reason to rush in to things. Rushing into things is where trouble starts!
 
What I meant that ultimately there will be more fish going in and rule of thumb for adding more bio load is going to be affected by the fact that ammonia being consumed by plants/algae and not by bacteria. I'm thinking (logical) that if bacteria is responsible for only 50% of ammonia consumption (I really have no idea much though) then it can only cope with 25% increase in bioload as plants would not be able to increase their share, right? So unless something is changing in the tank there won't be any difference with respect to adding more fish now or in a few months. However its a good point about algae dying and of course changing light conditions, so I don't think my tank is stable yet.

P.S. Of course if bacteria is able to out-compete plants for ammonia consumption then my theory above is wrong and more time indeed would help to build up a bigger colony...
 
Well, you did mention an increase in nitrates... the only way THAT could happen is if the bacteria are actually processing it. If the plants are taking up the ammonia, they aren't going to be giving it up in the form of nitrate. So, your bacteria seem to be doing something.


If it were me, I'd just hold the status quo until the algae issue is completely sorted. THEN, you can look to increase the bioload, but you are right, slower will be better.


Plants can increase their usage, but not as easily as the bacteria. The bacteria you need only need ammonia and oxygen. Plants require balanced nutrients, of which ammonia/nitrate is only one. But, larger plants or faster growing plants will use more ammonia/nitrate.
 
Done a major rescaping in the tank today. Threw away a few plants, added a couple, trimmed cabomba and likes. Had an argument with the missus about missing plants :) Lfs didn't have apple snails, got some more amanos ( love these shrimp). Pwc 20%. water is good at the of the day- 0/0/20. Will leave lights on for 6 hours for the week.

Also three platy fry grew up already (and three more very little ones are there as well) so bioload increasing naturally.
 
Just happened back on this thread and just want to say that eagle has taken my lighting/algae advice and done a great job amplifying it and giving you good further info, all of which I agree with.

I sort of agree with him that I wouldn't probably have made such a sudden cut-back from 12 to 6 hours, but I don't actually have much evidence that a sudden change would actually harm the plants or anything, just a feeling that sudden is not the way we generally go about things with our tanks except in emergencies.

When you think about it, it's pretty easy to realize that if you have several species of plants you really, in the end, will just have to experiment with various photoperiods (and in your case we're talking about the rough range of maybe 5 hours through maybe 10 hours, starting on the lower side while the tank is immature and perhaps increasing as the tank gets more mature.) The major factor controlling your decisions will be whether or not you are controlling the diatoms but later on your secondary factor will be finding some timing compromise that seems to provide enough light for all the different species to thrive. As much as we like to think that the expertise is out there to tell you how much light various plants need, in fact that information is actually somewhat difficult to find, may be inaccurate or is simply not known. There is various lore about which plants are low-light or high-light and in general it will hold true but once you are paying attention to each of your species and find yourself thinking deeply about them, it becomes obvious how ignorant we humans usually are. Plants can come from such different habitats with different seasonal influences, different qualities of light, amounts of shade, damage from animals, ground conditions, flow rates, temperatures. The number of variables are astounding. I sometimes find myself looking at my plants and thinking: "I wonder if those would really appreaciate some much, much brighter light than I'm providing, but just for a short period of the day?" or stuff like that. I then sigh and think how impossible it would be really make it all perfect and go back to being glad that my various compromises seem to be working fairly well.

~~waterdrop~~
 
So far after three days of reduced light ( 6 hours ) it looks a lot better with respect to algae. First, the light itself, second more shrimp( that eating it non-stop), third while rescaping I've obviously disturbed a bit of gravel, so clean patches went up. So overall I'd say we are definitely going back to what it used to look. Thanks!

As for the water - I see a bit of ammonia( less than 0.25 though), probably because of trimming plants and algae going.
 
Makes sense. I'd do a 50% water change to bring ammonia back to trace levels.
 

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