Cycling Issue - High Nitrites!

[ImperialDave]

I have a new tank with 4 glofish tetras (had 5, one was failing to eat almost from the beginning, and finally died).  I added the fish on the first day after adding Safe Start, having been told that it was ok to do so.  It's been about two months now, and the nitrites have been off the charts.  We've done many, many 25% water changes, with no reduction in reading.  We've done several 50% with no reduction.  We finally did a 100%, and saw a 0 reading!  That lasted for about an hour, and by the next day was reading at 5 ppm again.  We did another 50% change today, and it actually showed change, down to about a 3 ppm.  We've added multiple doses of Safe Start, but one thread says that high nitrite will kill that bacteria.  That seems to defeat the purpose.  So, I'm unsure how to fix that.  Many people (including Petsmart and multiple threads) said that Prime, from Seacham was the absolute best thing for this, but I've read in a few places that it only detoxifies the nitrite for about 24 hours, and so it's not a solution.  We then read that Stability by Seacham was the best bacteria to solve the problem, but I just read in one thread that any bacteria which says you have to add it over and over again is bad.  So, it's blowing me away that there's so much advice, much of which is contradictory.  I can't believe that massive water changes end up completely useless after only about an hour.  
 
So, what should we do from here?

 

[eaglesaquarium]

How big is your tank?  The smaller the tank, the more quickly the nitrite concentrations will build up.
 
 
We have a thread, which might help you:  http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/433778-rescuing-a-fish-in-cycle-gone-wild-part-il/
 
 
But, at this point the best answer is to get the nitrite DOWN and keep it down.   First, 25% water changes are worthless when dealing with 5ppm nitrite.  First, that's the highest reading on the test kit, and the value could be significantly higher than that.  But, assuming that the 5ppm is accurate, a 25% water change would merely lower it to 3.75ppm, which is still toxic and will quickly build up again.  But, if the reading were actually 6 or even 7 ppm in reality, the test would not get under 4.5ppm even immediately after the water change.
 
 
 
Safe Start can be helpful, but only if its properly handled from manufacturing to when you used it.  But even so, I'd never trust it with fish, I'd always do a fishless cycle to 'test' it first.  
 
 
But, ultimately, you are in a tough spot.  The fish are likely suffering from nitrite poisoning - which affects the ability of the fish to take oxygen into their blood (the nitrite actually builds up in their red blood cells, turning them brown, and blocking their ability to hold oxygen).  The only thing that will allow the fish to eliminate that nitrite from their blood is to get them into water without nitrite... and they can slowly recover from the problem.  They also need extra oxygen in the water, so increasing surface agitation, will be a great benefit.
 
 
LARGE water changes and LOTS of them, will keep your fish healthy... but not help your cycle that much.  Salt will keep nitrite from ENTERING the fish (as described in the article linked above) but won't allow the fish to expel the nitrite that is already built up in their blood, if nitrite is still present in the water.  But, salt will allow the nitrite to sit in the tank, so that the bacteria can build up and deal with it.
 
 
There are a few ways to go...  Personally, the best way for you to go would be to do a MASSIVE water change... change every bit of the water that you can... ALL of it.  Remove all the nitrite that you possibly can.  It might help to remove the fish to a small container to suck up ALL the water that you can, and then replace the fish after refilling the tank.  Then, add a LOT of floating plants to the tank.  Keep the lights on the tank for 12-16 hours a day.  The floating plants are some of the best options for removing nitrogen from the water and they will take the nitrogen as ammonia produced by the fish.  They won't be able to take it all, but they can take a lot, and the more they take, the less nitrite will be produced by the bacteria.  (1 ppm ammonia - on an API test kit - converts to 2.7 ppm nitrite - on an API test kit - so every 1 ppm taken up by the plants of ammonium can have a dramatic effect on the speed - or lack thereof - with which nitrite will build up.) 
 
And having a little nitrite in the tank, will allow the bacteria to continue to build up to deal with the rest.  Funny thing is that the floating plants will also grow rapidly, and take up more ammonia leading to even less nitrite...
 
Floating plants like hornwort, duckweed (which can be hard to get rid of later), frogbit, water lettuce, etc. are some of the options available to you.  This won't get take up all the ammonia, and so nitrite will continue to build up, but at a slower rate, as less ammonia will be available to convert to nitrite.
 
Keep an eye on the ammonia and nitrite levels daily.  If the levels are starting to build up... do a massive water change to drop them again.  
 
 
 
As for Stability, and other products like it - yes, they are not very good.  
As for adding bacteria in a product like Safe Start, where you have very high nitrite - yes, it can kill them.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

For nitrite to become a problem, it must be greater than 5 ppm as nitrogen. This would be just over 16 ppm on an API type kit.
 
However, 4 small fish should not create that amount of nitrite without first creating so much ammonia it would likely have killed them. Something is amiss here and it is not nitrite being off the charts, imo. If it were as bad as you indicate it should have killed your fish.
 
This is even more the case when using Safe Start properly.
 
If you do have "off the chart nitrite" for any time at all your fish should be gasping at the surface for air as nitrite poisoning prevents the blood from carrying oxygen. Even in the most oxygenated water the fish will suffocate due to nitrite at elevated levels. Then there is the fact that using API kits, you need 1 ppm of ammonia or more to create about 2.55 ppm of nitrite.
 
In order to make sense of your situation I would like a lot more information.  For a start what are the other tank parameters? Ammonia, nitrate, KH, pH and temperature. What decor is in the tank, what filtration. What test kits are you using and what is their expiration date. How are you testing? What happened between day one and day 60+. What were the readings like at the outset and along the way? Do you have any live plants in the tank? What is your normal dechlor?

 

[ImperialDave]

Just to start, I've already read all three of those articles.  As I indicated, we've done a 100% water change, that's all water out, cleaning all the tank and ornaments, and we did as much as we really could without removing them yesterday, and plan to do it again today.  I've been adding salt this whole time, but my wife stopped doing that through many of our latest water changes.  We also added a plant, and are considering adding another.  I've been adding Prime in emergency doses about every other day.  Maybe the salt and the Prime are why they haven't died?  They are glofish tetras, as I said, and are starting to look silvery around the front of their bellies.  Many of them aren't eating regularly (and we've tried to stop the feeding for a few days, with no effect on nitrite levels).  
 
As far as the testing and nitrite levels being wrong, we were using the Marineland strips (I think they top off at 10 ppm), and we went to the API freshwater master kit, which uses tubes and chemicals, like for a swimming pool.  So, two separate kits have told us nitrite levels are high.  We've never had an ammonia problem, but we didn't get a test kit until about a month or so into the process.  I'm assuming we missed the first phase of the nitrogen cycle and are in the second phase.  

I'm not sure what to from this point, except to continue the huge water changes until the cycle is completed?

Oh! and my tank is a 10 gallon.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Stop cleaning things. the bacteria is found all over the tank on hard surfaces, usually the undersides as the bacteria tend to be photosensitive.
 
I don't mean to be a nudge, but I have used a ton of test kits and none has a reading called high, readings are in PPM not low medium and high 

. Can you provide some ppm levels, please.
 
Next, Prime can interfere with test results, especially for ammonia. Therefore, one should test immediateley after using it or else wait at least 24 hours. Depsite what SeaChem claims, the ammonia detoxifier in Prime, when it is overdosed, can slow a cycle.
 
You should have some ammonia if you have nitrite at high levels. But Safe Start contains both ammonia bacs and nitrite bacs. So, one should not have high levels of either. if one follows their directions properly, you should have a safe tank pretty fast.
 
It is little help now but to cycle a 10 gal tank, two fish max to start. two small fish.
 
So far most of the information you have provided does not show why you would have no ammonia but very high nitrite at this stage with a new tank. In fact you should have been just fine in about a week from the start (assuming the SS was used from day one).
 
Can you provide your ammonia and nitrite test results for the first two weeks after you set up the tank. Understanding what is going on in a tank in terms of cycling requires one can see the whole process. It should follow a pretty regular progression and when it does not, it is important to know what happened up to that point to try and figure out why something is amiss.
 
Finally, are your fish now or have they ever shown the signs of nitrite poisoning?
 

 
 
 SIGNS OF NITRITE POISONING 
 
Fish will not behave as they normally do. Because their blood is not carrying oxygen, fish will behave as if they are suffocating. They may hang just below the water surface or near filter outflows trying to get air. What you will not see is any outward sign of bodily damage nor damage to the gills of the fish.

 
However, if you used salt from the first time you noticed nitrite levels in the tank, this may have mitigated the above effects. But if you have stopped the salt and the nitrite is still there, then the fish should start to show symptoms.

 

[ImperialDave]

I did give you the nitrite levels, they have consistently been at 5 ppm (and probably higher) for last two weeks.  We didn't have a test kit at first, because I didn't know it was actually necessary.  So our first readings weren't until about two to four weeks after we started.  We were told by the pet store (and the packaging) that with safe start, you could put the fish right in. I wasn't paying a ton of attention to the other numbers, because they all said normal ranges.  We have never read any ammonia, which doesn't make sense.  I also don't know why we'd read no ammonia, but quickly read super high nitrites fairly immediately.  
 
We are reading the levels before adding Prime.  I'm adding Prime after, because it says if it's at 5 ppm, you need emergency help.  So when I read that, I add the emergency dose.  
 
We've also never read any nitrates until now.  

Here are my current numbers:

Nitrite 5.0 PPM (or greater)
Ammonia 0 PPM 
PH 8.0
Nitrates 5.0 PPM

This makes me think that the tank is finally starting to cycle.  This is the first time we've read any nitrates.  We added Stability last night for the first time.  I got those readings and did a 75% water change just now.  I'm going to check the levels after about an hour.
 

Oh, and they don't seem to have any of the signs of nitrite poisoning.  So, I'm not sure if it's the salt or the Prime that's keeping them alive.  One does seem to be bloated and they are starting to be more silvery, rather than their normal glofish colors.  

 

[ImperialDave]

Just checked, about an hour after massive water change, and my nitrites are at a 0.5 ppm now.  I'm super glad to see that.  Nitrates are at about a 2.5 ppm (the first reading is 5 and it's more than 0 and less than 5, soooooo).  
I'm hoping it'll look better tomorrow.  It looks like we had some success today.  I plan to add Stability right before we turn off the lights (it says to add it every day for 7 days, and that UV light can damage it).  I think we might get a second plant, too.

Another quick question, when adding Stability, does it work better to add it to the main tank, or to the filter area, where it can get on the filter and biowheel more readily?

 

[AmtotheBurr]

I hope you can get it stabilized. Its frustrating when things aren't working as planned! Hope the fish recover nicely

 

[ImperialDave]

I just tested again this morning, before feeding (only feeding a little). The colors aren't as clear cut as they have been.
Nitrites may still be 5, but I'm thinking they are lower. It's hard to tell, but it definitely wasn't as solidly in the 5 (or above) range. I'm thinking it fit more toward the 2 ppm scale (that's the next one down; so it may be more like 3 ppm)

Nitrates look like they may be lower than 5, but there definitely are some now, maybe 3 or 4. 

Still 0 ammonia.

One fish, that has looked bloated, now looks like the gills may be a little red or reddish brown, and the eye isn't the same color as the body, like it was. The eye is now a dark orange. Is there hope for this guy?

I'd give a picture, but I can't figure out how to do that.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

My advice it to stop changing water. Stop dumping in Prime (except at a normal dose for a water change). Don't add Stability.
 
Follow the directions in the rescue article to determine how much salt you need to add and how to do diluted testing for nitrite. The amount of salt it takes to counteract nitrite is not very much but you need to be sure it is as much as is needed. Change 50% of the water if and when nitrite = more than 15 ppm. (You will likely need to do diluted testing for this if your test kit reads the maximum level it can.) Then change only 50%. Feed the tank no more than every other day.
 
If you have the salt levels correct and do not change water. You should get over this fast. Water changes always slow cycling. The should only be done when needed. You cannot do anything for ammonia except a water change. But this depends not upon the reading for total ammonia on a hobby kit but rather the actual level of NH3 in a tank. Determining this requires temperature and pH information in addition to the total ammonia reading.

 

[ImperialDave]

So, do you know why I would have never read ammonia at all, on two separate kits?

Is it a good sign that we have some nitrates, now, finally?  It seems to me that's a sign that the cycling is working?

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I believe that the amount of time that passed before you had the ammonia test kit might be the answer.
 
And yes, nitrates are a good sign!  

 

[ImperialDave]

That was my only guess.  So, in general, you won't read ammonia in a properly cycled tank?

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Correct- cycled = 0 ammonia on the kit. You wont read any nitrite either in a cycled tank.
 
But the problem is likely you were well on your way to cycled from the Safe Start and mistakenly did things to mess that up. Lots of water changes and additives will do that.

 

[ImperialDave]

That sounds good.  We went out of town for four days, and we got one of those 7 day feeders.  We removed it, and as much of the floating stuff, as soon as we got back, but that's when we started getting those high nitrite levels.