Cycle Slowed Down..

[Miss Wiggle]

Tag, didn't answer my q's above... think we may have posted at the same time so you missed them?!

anyway, if the main tank has recently finished cycling then i would not advise taking any media from it. once the colony is a few months old it'll be able to double in a day or so and as such can take half the media being removed with no spike. A brand new colony can't double so fast so you might end up with trouble.

I would suggest not doing it, but if you have real cycling problems and are still streuggling in a month or so then it'd probably be safe to switch media around so just keep it on the backburner as plan B

 

[Tag2008]

Tag, didn't answer my q's above... think we may have posted at the same time so you missed them?!

anyway, if the main tank has recently finished cycling then i would not advise taking any media from it. once the colony is a few months old it'll be able to double in a day or so and as such can take half the media being removed with no spike. A brand new colony can't double so fast so you might end up with trouble.

I would suggest not doing it, but if you have real cycling problems and are still streuggling in a month or so then it'd probably be safe to switch media around so just keep it on the backburner as plan B

Hey MW,
Sorry I think we were posting at the same time,

Im rambling Im sorry I read what I wrote and it was just the water containers I bought at the LFS, they are great big plastic water canisters but with no water

I dont want to mess with my main tanks media as i have no fish to put in my wee tank so will just start again...

Thanks again for all your commants..

What A Morning!!! Oh Blimey its near evening now lol

 

[Miss Wiggle]

ha ha no problem, if you used the water drums you could find that they were dirty or had some residue from the manufacturing process left on them with anything like that it's advisable to wash them before the first use.

that could explain the nitrate hike straight after a water change.

 

[Tag2008]

ha ha no problem, if you used the water drums you could find that they were dirty or had some residue from the manufacturing process left on them with anything like that it's advisable to wash them before the first use.

that could explain the nitrate hike straight after a water change.

Hi,
Yes that was my thoughts to so tested all the waters in all 4 of them b4 and after, Ive became a test freak Honest!! lol

Ive had them for a while and we did scrub them out b4 we started to use them again..

Who Knows its hopefully a mystery that wont occur again, Im just glad I never had fish in..

Like Simon I presumed the only way to get Nitrate was to have ammonia broken down??

Thanks again
tag

 

[waterdrop]

Even when I did large water changes with water remaining only in the gravel and filter there would still be a lot of nitrates hanging around. And you can't measure again so soon as you did. You will always get elevated levels when things are stirred up.

You just need more water changes I think and then dechlor & recharge with ammonia of course.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Tag2008]

Hi Guys,

Just out of interest I had a bottle of Stress Zine/zime, the bloke at the LFS said it would help the cycle process im doing??

Anyways I listened to him and added some to this small tank im cycling after the PH crash I thought what the heck so gave a measured dose to the tank..

After a while I did another water test and noticed that the Nitrate and nitrite were eleveated again?? would this type of product cause the levels to rise?

Regards
Tag

 

[Corleone]

It's snake oil. It won't hurt, but don't expect miracles. Not sure about Stress Zyme, but with Stability and similar products, you're better off dumping the whole lot in and hoping there's at least some appropriate bacteria alive in there.

Bio-Spira has the potential to work miracles. Not quite reliable enough to count on, since it has to be refrigerated and can end up being ruined in shipping or even on the drive home, but the potential is there. Bactinettes I understand is the UK equivalent.

 

[Tag2008]

It's snake oil. It won't hurt, but don't expect miracles. Not sure about Stress Zyme, but with Stability and similar products, you're better off dumping the whole lot in and hoping there's at least some appropriate bacteria alive in there.

Bio-Spira has the potential to work miracles. Not quite reliable enough to count on, since it has to be refrigerated and can end up being ruined in shipping or even on the drive home, but the potential is there. Bactinettes I understand is the UK equivalent.

Hi Thanks for that,

So would adding it affect the nitrate and nitrites do you think?

I wouldnt have bothered with it as id read as much in other posts , but you know how it is you ask at your LFS whats best and what to do and when your offered a product you feel you have to buy it as they are recomending it and if you dont buy it your seen to be a cheapskate or ignoring the advice your being given...Im realy starting to dislike LFS's of any kind, the more dealings I have with them the more I think they dont give a #### about your problems they just want to flog you products that dont work or are not needed and prey on us if they can...

I mentioned the support Ive been getting on here and it was rubbbished as a bad way of getting support and advice, I near walked out of his shop lol "So Adopted The Smile and Nod Tequnique "

Thanks again.
Tag

 

[Miss Wiggle]

yeah tbh, i don't really ever ask the lfs for advice, just go in, choose what i need and walk out. there's the odd lfs around here, or perhaps more importantly the odd lfs employee who knows their stuff who i'll happily chat fish with, but even then it's more general banter rather than 'what do i do about this' sorta stuff.

ultimatley we all have a bit of a love/hate thing with lfs's, and I reckon they probably do with us as well. We can't continue our hobby without them, but also the amount of stress we see caused by them particularly with the brilliant 'run your tank for two weeks then we'll test the water and if it's ok put some fish in' type stuff. Likewise for them though they probably get sick of people going in to them saying 'so and so off this forum said you're wrong and selling me rubbish' but without us going in and regularly parting with our hard earned cash they'd be nowhere!!

with any bacteria in a bottle products what you're likley to get is dead bacteria, this will be basically a bit of extra ammonia, so if your filter processes this then you can get a bit of extra nitrite and nitrate shortly afterwards.

 

[Tag2008]

Well... were back on track.. the PH dropped again the other day so added a small amount of Baking Soda and this took it back a little and is keeping it above 7 just now and today my ammonia was 0 so its started working again...Took 4 days to eat the fist dose of ammonia same as my main tank did.

Added the second dose of ammonia today and will just keep watching hopefully wont have problems this time..!!

I just guessed the amount of baking soda but I also read that tthis os only a temporary fix and the PH will drop again and the soda may need to be topped up as its not a long lasting fix??

Thanks again
Tag

 

[waterdrop]

Right Tag, now you're getting the hang. One reason members order in a KH kit (usually off the internet as LFS rarely have them) is that KH will give you a "preview" of whether your pH is going to go down. KH measures the "Carbonate Hardness" (aka alkalinity, although that term can be confusing because it has also been used as the opposite of acid by people...) which is the "buffer" against pH changes. If you have zero KH, then pH can move wildly around very quickly. If you have, say, KH=4, then its going to take a few days for fishless cycling to use up the buffer and start to crash pH down. If you have, say, KH=10, then you are so buffered up that pH will probably not move at all despite the fishless cycling.

Now! You can choose to pay attention that that sciency paragraph above or not, doesn't really matter because you can also just slowly ease slightly more baking soda in there and just tell by your standard pH test when you are getting up to the 8.0 to 8.4 range that the chemolithoautotrophic bacteria that we want seem to grow fastest in. Just be careful and don't put in too much without testing, since you don't want to go to high.

And just another disclaimer for any beginners reading this - you don't -have- to play with your bacteria water like this if you don't want too. Its not a proven thing that this will always speed up a fishless cycle by any means. Its just part of the ongoing effort to optimize the process. I happen to think its fun. I also think its pretty easy to use the baking soda and doesn't hurt anything. But there's nothing very wrong with growing these bacteria down in the pH 7.5 & up range or so, we just think that the 8 to 8.4 might be optimal.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Tag2008]

Right Tag, now you're getting the hang. One reason members order in a KH kit (usually off the internet as LFS rarely have them) is that KH will give you a "preview" of whether your pH is going to go down. KH measures the "Carbonate Hardness" (aka alkalinity, although that term can be confusing because it has also been used as the opposite of acid by people...) which is the "buffer" against pH changes. If you have zero KH, then pH can move wildly around very quickly. If you have, say, KH=4, then its going to take a few days for fishless cycling to use up the buffer and start to crash pH down. If you have, say, KH=10, then you are so buffered up that pH will probably not move at all despite the fishless cycling.

Now! You can choose to pay attention that that sciency paragraph above or not, doesn't really matter because you can also just slowly ease slightly more baking soda in there and just tell by your standard pH test when you are getting up to the 8.0 to 8.4 range that the chemolithoautotrophic bacteria that we want seem to grow fastest in. Just be careful and don't put in too much without testing, since you don't want to go to high.

And just another disclaimer for any beginners reading this - you don't -have- to play with your bacteria water like this if you don't want too. Its not a proven thing that this will always speed up a fishless cycle by any means. Its just part of the ongoing effort to optimize the process. I happen to think its fun. I also think its pretty easy to use the baking soda and doesn't hurt anything. But there's nothing very wrong with growing these bacteria down in the pH 7.5 & up range or so, we just think that the 8 to 8.4 might be optimal.

~~waterdrop~~

Thank you WD,

The scentific stuff takes me a while to comprehend fully but I will get there...

I just tested a while ago as it was 12 hrs since adding my second lot of ammonia and some has been processed went down from 4 to 2 but the PH was way way down again!! so in with some more Baking soda same amount as before and im waiting a while to test to see if its been enought to raise the PH...

I will try to get it up to 8 ish as you state...How long should I wait after adding the soda to get an accutare test reading? Im sure you said an hour in another post?

Any ideas why my big tank didnt go through these problems? is this something that happens in a smaller tank?

I have KH on a test strip(Not Reliable I know) and they read as after Ive added the soda
GH: <3
kh: 6
ph 7 - 7.2 <Added the same soda again to try and get it up another notch..

If my KH is close then going by this im going to get a day or 2 at a time before my PH starts to dip too low..

Because im adding this soda to help the PH will I now have to do any water changes if they cycle keeps up OK or do I still just wait till all is done before I change my water..

Thanks again
Tag

 

[waterdrop]

Well, personally, I usually never got so anxious to test, I would just test the next day and see what effect my change had.

Yes, you have to remember that the smaller the tank, the more quickly everything happens (except cycling!).... like for instance, the fishless cycling process, which tends to drive the pH down, will be able to drive it down much faster in a smaller tank. The bacteria don't care what size tank you have, they just stop growing when the pH gets down to around 6.2 or lower and then if it gets down to 5.5 (or somewhere down there), heaven forbid, they just die.

And of course in a smaller tank, if there's some carbonate in there being a buffer, then again there's less of it overall and it will get used up faster, precipitating the pH crash and then the stalled bacterial growth.

Also, another thing people tend to forget about bacteria is that they are living creatures, with a "lag phase", and a "growth phase". Its not at all like chemistry where you put various amounts in and expect a nice predictable thing to happen. With bacteria, each time you have a "stall" and make them unhappy, they can take a while to go through their "lag phase" again before they can start growing again. So the smoothness and consistency with which the fishless cycle is carried out makes a difference in people's outcomes.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Tag2008]

Well, personally, I usually never got so anxious to test, I would just test the next day and see what effect my change had.

Yes, you have to remember that the smaller the tank, the more quickly everything happens (except cycling!).... like for instance, the fishless cycling process, which tends to drive the pH down, will be able to drive it down much faster in a smaller tank. The bacteria don't care what size tank you have, they just stop growing when the pH gets down to around 6.2 or lower and then if it gets down to 5.5 (or somewhere down there), heaven forbid, they just die.

And of course in a smaller tank, if there's some carbonate in there being a buffer, then again there's less of it overall and it will get used up faster, precipitating the pH crash and then the stalled bacterial growth.

Also, another thing people tend to forget about bacteria is that they are living creatures, with a "lag phase", and a "growth phase". Its not at all like chemistry where you put various amounts in and expect a nice predictable thing to happen. With bacteria, each time you have a "stall" and make them unhappy, they can take a while to go through their "lag phase" again before they can start growing again. So the smoothness and consistency with which the fishless cycle is carried out makes a difference in people's outcomes.

~~waterdrop~~

Thanks for that WD

 

[waterdrop]

Tag,

If I've glanced back and got this correct (its difficult as your base data is tricky to find in this thread) the you washed all the media in tap water 4 days ago? So you are clearly still in the early first phase waiting for the A-Bacs to process ammonia (whatever you put in 4ppm, whatever) down to zero and its probably not going down withing 24 hours yet, right? (sorry if you already told us, just couldln't find it when I looked back over the thread.)

Anyway, by way of answering your question about baking soda, if you are still in the first phase then you don't really want to disturb things as much with water changes yet. The baking soda will not make you have to do any more water changes than without it. It will be gone quite enough with the final 90% water change before adding fish (you, of course, do not use it after you get fish) and it won't have any residual effects, so its not to worry about.

In the second phase of fishless cycling, after ammonia is dropping to zero in 24 hours and the nitrite has "spiked" way up high, we have been feeling that water changes (on the weekend for instance) seem to be a good thing for several reasons. Most importantly it removes some of the nitrite (NO2) so that your nitrite test may be able to show you some movement. It removes the large amounts of nitrate (NO3) that are building up. Because it is a gravel clean, it removes extra debris which just "muddies"(lol) the testing picture. Removing the excess nitrites may be good for the N-Bac growth (per Hovanec). Also, in my opinion, beginning to gravel vac and water change at this point without fish allows you, if you are a beginner, to practice the real thing and get all your buckets and habits going and worked out before having fish.

So, when you DO do these water changes later on in the 2nd phase, you will need to remember several things when you put the fresh tap water back in. It needs to be properly conditioned for chlorine/chloramine of course, it probably doesn't need any temp matching but I always did rough temp matching anyway (anything to keep my bacteria cooking along!), then you need to always remember to top your ammonia back up and top your baking soda back up. Its not that these things are hard, its just easy to plain old forget!

~~waterdrop~~