Creating The Perfect Fish

[ral]

During a local fish show I saw a flowehorn (hybrid cyclid) with a huge forehead (the size of a tennis ball). It was disproportionate to its body and seemed to have a little difficulty swimming. It certainly is not the best shape for a fish.

I wonder if in creating the perfect betta, we are not doing the same thing. We create fish with heavier and longer tails, who swim slower and have to work harder. But these are the competition standards.

Maybe a change in focus would be better. Wouldn't a nice delta tail with perfect scales be a better compromise? It still has a tail large enough to impress and it is not weighted down as much as its more sought after siblings. Why should a more capable, faster swimming I fish loose on points because its tail does not hit 180 degrees.

I have seen halfmoons collapse with age. One of ours, even seemed to develop a back problem because of the weight of his caudal fin. With old age, my two remaining halfmoons look like tired fish. Maybe a change on what the perfect betta is, is in order.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[nino]

You know, I've been thinking about this a long time. Synnir sent me to plakats from her spawn and I think they are so beautiful even though they don't have long tails. I've really grown on plakats because of this, I love how natural they look. It is also why I like females, they mostly have short fins too. Now when I look at a betta with such long finnage, I know it's not natural and I feel as though it's a burden to the fish (for example, I've had friends with overly large chests and they were miserable.. though they weren't bred for that trait exactly ).
I guess what I'm trying to say, to me, a more natural looking betta is a more perfect betta And that is why my next big setup is going to be some wilds.

 

[ral]

I don't necessarily think we should stop producing or buying long fins... but if "perfect" meant a 120 degree caudal fin... well that would be much easier for the fish to live with than a 180 degree fin. A Delta is still an impressive fish.

 

[nino]

I agree that Deltas are impressive but I guess I just enjoy for my fish to be able to jet around their tanks, not being burdened by heavy, dragging fins.

 

[ral]

I know what you mean. I started in this hobby in 2004. Everything I have purchased this year is a shortfin.

 

[Synirr]

Actually, the competition standards are not that fish should have massive finnage. There's a difference between having huge heavy fins that are difficult to swim with and having a 180 degree spread.... heck, there are even halfmoon plakats. What judges look for is symmetry and overall form. For example, in terms of finnage, this fish:

would probably do better in competition than this fish:

even though his finnage isn't quite as long, because his fins form a more perfect circle. The second fish's anal fin is a tidge too long.
In show, the fish are judged on overall quality. Finnage, deportment (they're actually disqualified if they don't flare at all), scale pattern, etc. A fish that cannot properly carry and display its finnage is not desirable.
GHBBC Show Standards

 

[jollysue]

You all make a good point about the heavy fins and longevity, I think. I have been moving toward the beauty in the affect and balance. I love the way Synirr's boys stand to attention when they flare. My Thai Orange Plakat HM does that too and the Thai Orange HM girl. It's impressive in it's simplicity.

What I would really like to see in the direction of breeding though would be to breed some of the fighting aggressiveness out. The Wilds can live together. Am I right? I am sorry for my boys who have nothing but lonliness to look forward to--and blackworms. How awesome would a fraternity be?

But I'm guessing that the aggressive behavior is part of the standard. Couldn't they be bred to flare w/o the pit bull attitude. The girls do.

 

[nino]

You all make a good point about the heavy fins and longevity, I think. I have been moving toward the beauty in the affect and balance. I love the way Synirr's boys stand to attention when they flare. My Thai Orange Plakat HM does that too and the Thai Orange HM girl. It's impressive in it's simplicity.

What I would really like to see in the direction of breeding though would be to breed some of the fighting aggressiveness out. The Wilds can live together. Am I right? I am sorry for my boys who have nothing but lonliness to look forward to--and blackworms. How awesome would a fraternity be?

But I'm guessing that the aggressive behavior is part of the standard. Couldn't they be bred to flare w/o the pit bull attitude. The girls do.

Jollysue, that was another thing I've been thinking about. Wouldn't a "fraternity" tank be soo cool?

 

[jollysue]

Absolutely incredible, but not possible, I have been told. And I say "I have been told", not because I don't believe it, but because I have never seen it tried--and I don't intend to try it. I have seen the boys try to get though the dividers at one another. That is enough. And I can see no good reason for continuing to breed the Splendens with this characteristic. If you decide to breed a community splendens, I want some.

I do not have any more interesting or colorful tank than my Alpha Betta Sorority Tank.

 

[Synirr]

Absolutely incredible, but not possible, I have been told. And I say "I have been told", not because I don't believe it, but because I have never seen it tried...

http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showto...community&st=64

 

[jollysue]

My point was that I only know by second hand, and I'm not an expert. I can only repeat what people I trust have taught me. It wasn't my point to disregard or disagree with the established wisdom.

My 2nd point was that I don't understand why splendens are still being bred to fight, if you don't want them to fight. Perhaps it would not be possible to breed this characteristic out (not train it out with behavior mod) without losing the beauty. But the standards, I am assuming, reinforce the "breed for fight practices."

 

[jollysue]

Ok, Synirr, I think I get the point you were making: "Here are examples of community betta tanks. Now you have seen."

My eyes are bleary now, so I can't finish the thread to see what I may have missed. My two years are up on my glasses, and my 64 years are up on my eyes in Dec.

Now I can say I have seen some evidence of betta together in community.

 

[Silvani]

A friend of mine has a VT betta, that boy will NEVER flare. Get out a mirror, nothing. Put him next to another fish, nada. He if anything will swim away from the other fish or image.

He’s totally happy, swims around, and seems perfectly healthy. However he doesn’t seem to have an aggressive bone in his body. I still would never want to see him risked in a male community tank, just saying that such “non aggressive” fish do exist.

I found that thread with all the males in one tank to be very disturbing. Made me really sad to see.

 

[ral]

It is not that they are bred to fight that makes them violent. It is just that they are territorial, each fish needing a certain amount of space. In the wild, I was told by a Malaysian betta breeder, that after some posturing one male or the other would often run away, resulting in no fight... but in a tank, there is no where to run too.

Betta's are not the only territorial fish. Other territorial fish would act the same way. Don't know if that can be bred out of them.

 

[jollysue]

Ral: Are you saying that breeders have not bred Siamese Fighting Fish for hundreds and hundreds of years to produce the best fighters? It is done with dogs and with roosters and with bulls, too. Consider the magnificent thouroghbred horse. If you want a racer from that mare, you don't breed her to a plow horse. If you want to work cows, you look for certain characteristics in the parent horses: everything from size to disposition. But the quarter horse came from the same base breed as the thouroughbred, the Arabian, I believe. Breeding for a specific quality, whether it is herding sheep or fighting, is a time honored occupation.

Of course, certain characteristics are watched for and selectively bred into the species. Just as Wuv and Synirr do with their breeding. And certain families of fish are chosen to breed for certain behaviorial and physical characteristics.

Yes, I have cockatoos, appistogramma cacatuoides. They are a great community fish. But they are very territorial. If they are in the wrong environment without enough room or places for their females to lay eggs or their lady's caves are being encroached upon dangerously they will get dangerously aggressive. My neighbor is the same way about his family. If David Soares, apistodave, wants an Orange flash spawn he doesn't chose a triple red male as the dad.

The Siamese Fighting Fish is AS aggressive as it is because of it's selective breeding over hundreds of years by people who wanted a do or die champion fighter. They chose the winners to breed. It has been a long time since the VT has been chosing his own breeding in the wild, It is only recently on the world market that the fish became valuable for display only. There are areas in my town where the fish are still being fought, just as roosters and dogs are. I can take you where they buy their fish to fight.

The truth is the truth. We can have have no positive impact on our environment or ourselves if we live in denial of the truth.

Can the VT be less violent through breeding and still be as colorful? Only breeders can find out. In the behavioral sciences it is part of the nurture or nature argument.