Coronavirus...post your thoughts here...

@outofwater
I think it stopped being your favourite thread!
Just remember, the ideologically pure ones who took flak for their actions were not the victims. Those who died or were disabled by the pandemic were, as were their families.
People had to take responsibility for their own actions, and to expect no consequences would have been short sighted. Religion is an opinion like any other, and when it's treated as equal to other other ideas, that's called called condescending. It's a debating game trick.

@OnlyGenusCaps I used to think we were all logical and capable of developing logical world views, but I doubt that now. I've seen enough healing crystals and homeopathy to be certain I was wrong. We get superstitious about things we can't control, and who can control their world? If you're a researcher engaged in the practical gathering and analyzing facts and data, maybe it shields you from seeing uncertainties as bad things. It puts them into perspective, since a scientist should be uncertain by definition. You work in a skeptical art.
I like a good debate and participate if I want, but my patience wore thin for those who won't discuss their ideas without resorting to name calling or immediately go into condescension, and long ago I reached the point where I won't listen to anyone who values their perceived individual safety over everyone's factual liberties. I fully understand the plight of those who lost loved ones to this and sympathize with them, to a reasonable extent. If certain people wholeheartedly believe that staying 6 feet away, a dirty piece of cloth and a rushed, unproven and 100% "no liability" experiment is what they need to fend off the worst disease to plague God's green earth, I will always encourage them to stay at home, wear the mask and line up for the next shot. Just don't force me to follow, grovel or bow down to arbitrary "mandates" by tyrants who always exempt themselves from their "rules", don't threaten to take my livelihood, my family and my rights away from me and then expect no pushback or retaliation, be it towards said power tripping figureheads, or those who blindly follow them. Stay 6 feet away, wear a mask, or 2 or 3, and keep getting the shots. Let me be me, I will gladly stay more than 6 feet away from such people, unmasked, unafraid, and "unvaxxed".

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
this often quoted snippet by Benjamin Franklin is something I strive to live by.
 
This thread is not meant to be a debate between vaxers and nonvaxers. As posted in the first post of this thread, the subject of this thread is:

The Coronavirus is spreading rapidly worldwide.
  • What is the present state of the virus in your country or state?
  • Do you know anyone who is infected?
  • What restrictions does your government have to prevent the spread of the virus?
  • Are you making any preparations such as stocking up on food and buying masks?
  • What is your opinion about the coronavirus..is it overblown; or do you feel there will be a pandemic?
Please stick to the facts and stay on topic. Please be able to back up your post with a link to a reputable source if necessary.
 
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Aaaaand back to that.
Well, here in Boston there seems to be a push to wear masks again, a fringe group is trying to press schools to mandate them again.
Other than that, everyone has all but forgotten about it, people are out and about (yes, some with masks), busses are packed, public venues too.
I haven't heard of anyone dying from it anymore. It's the cold season, my own son just got sick and he's stayed at home from school since Tuesday. Even the school personnel don't require testing or a doctor's note anymore to return. So, IMHO, a big ado about nothing , from.the start.
 
I like a good debate and participate if I want, but my patience wore thin for those who won't discuss their ideas without resorting to name calling or immediately go into condescension, and long ago I reached the point where I won't listen to anyone who values their perceived individual safety over everyone's factual liberties. I fully understand the plight of those who lost loved ones to this and sympathize with them, to a reasonable extent. If certain people wholeheartedly believe that staying 6 feet away, a dirty piece of cloth and a rushed, unproven and 100% "no liability" experiment is what they need to fend off the worst disease to plague God's green earth, I will always encourage them to stay at home, wear the mask and line up for the next shot. Just don't force me to follow, grovel or bow down to arbitrary "mandates" by tyrants who always exempt themselves from their "rules", don't threaten to take my livelihood, my family and my rights away from me and then expect no pushback or retaliation, be it towards said power tripping figureheads, or those who blindly follow them. Stay 6 feet away, wear a mask, or 2 or 3, and keep getting the shots. Let me be me, I will gladly stay more than 6 feet away from such people, unmasked, unafraid, and "unvaxxed".

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
this often quoted snippet by Benjamin Franklin is something I strive to live by.
Very well said. I wholeheartedly agree with you.
 
Here, we have a slightly higher weekly death rate than at some of the earlier phases (it's still reported), but we have never had the death rates seen in the large country to the south of us. It has never even been close. You see a lot of elderly people in masks, and a lot of retail personnel are wearing masks. I expect they are here to stay, as a courtesy to others. Back in the 80s, when I first saw Japanese students wearing surgical masks when they had colds but were able to come to class, I thought it was wonderful but not something we would ever see in our society. I may have been wrong there - the younger crew have adopted them for that function.

We have had high rates of vaccination. That means those I've known who got COVID recently have had a whopping cold/flu from it, but nothing that would kill them unless they were elderly. I happen to believe everyone deserves as much life as they can have, so I try to protect the elderly too. It's very different from the debilitating thing it first was. I know a few people with long term health effects from catching covid before the vaccines were ready to go, and that's an issue people are finally admitting is there.
I no longer see morgue vans when I'm walking the dog (I lived close to a hospital during the worst of it), and I like that.
If I end up feeling any symptoms, I will wear a mask. I keep my vaccinations up to date as I can see objectively, that the vaccine works. If I were to go into an old peoples' home, I'd mask. It's obligatory to mask to enter a hospital here again. The virus is in the background now, but people are still behaving more or less responsibly.

A kid who was supposed to come up from Maine for xmas dinner with her family has COVID, so with the elderly in the family, they decided to stay home. That's a big change we just heard about yesterday. We are going to have a lot of leftover turkey with 6 fewer people.

I hope we never forget about the tens of thousands who lost their lives in that pandemic, but we probably will. For now, it's under the surface, bubbling away much like the flu. Hopefully, with vaccinations levels high and evolution doing what it does, it'll just mean we have influenza and covid now. The cat's out of the bag.
 
I said, do what the doctors say, especially when the doctor is a personal friend who, I'm reasonably sure, sincerely has my best interest at heart.

You had some many good things to say, I ran out of quotes I was allowed to pull at one time! I think you and I could have a really interesting discussion on this topic! But not here, as it would require including some politics. I understand why, but I also think it's a shame in this case as it think it would be really interesting. Also, @Fishmanic , if this as a broader conversation seems too far off topic, feel free to bump it elsewhere, delete it, warm me, whatever feel right. Please do know, I'm certainly not trying to be political in my reply here - or inflammatory for that matter.

I think what you say about the doctor you trust is really important! Indeed, I think trust and personal relationships are critical for engaging across any ideological lines. But with things headed where they seem to be going, I still wonder how best to communicate with folks about important issues when there is not the same level of connection? I don't have answers. Just seems like something we are confronting.

Part of it is that, while science is unbiassed and fact-based, scientists are human just like the rest of us, and subject to preconceived notions, hubris, greed, and all the other faults of humanity.

Here I have to push back a bit. This trope gets used all the time in the social studies to justify their biases when they do research - "well, physicists aren't free from bias as they are human too!" The thing is it's true. It's like saying evolution is a theory. It is. But in the scientific and not casual sense. So, yes, scientists make human mistakes and see the world through human eyes, and peer review doesn't catch everything (less these days, but that's a whole academic reward system tirade I could go on that I won't). But, science is still the far and away best system humans have developed to understand the reality we find ourselves in. Full stop. And it is because it is a system created to correct for our human biases. This is why the bigger part of training a good scientist is getting them to think like a scientist; not filling someone's head with facts as folks seem to think it is. Statements like the one you made throw the baby out with the bathwater. Can there be instances of group-think among scientists. Absolutely. But it's far less common than people seem to think it is, because we are all employed to refute what the other guy is saying. That said, there are cases that occur, and are occurring. But outside of science, everyone seems to think it is the things they disagree with where scientists are "colluding". It's usually not. It's most often on pedantic stuff that we are blind to until someone comes along and shows us data about how dumb we've been!

"the science"

So, when I hear someone say that in a debate, interview, political debate, I cringe! Why? Rarely when someone says that do they themselves have the background knowledge of the science to back up the statement they just made. It's an appeal to authority, and it erodes the authority that science has in the public eye (despite the fact we have advanced considerably on science's findings singe the 1600's and we all seem to recognize that). Basically, it is not a valid for of logical proof and that annoys the crud out of me when it hear it used in arguments (I hangout with philosophers - we have bad habits!). So, I'd say you are right to be suspicious when you hear someone blurt out that phrase.

But power, including the intellectual kind, corrupts, and those with the power often do not have the best interests of ordinary people at heart.

We could have a deeper discussion here, were this another format. But, I do want to say that scientists, believe it or not, are almost to a person, not people in authority. I get chewed out when a student feel put out by an assignment. I don't even have authority over my class for Pete's sake.

That being so, it can be healthy to not trust the establishment too much, scientific or otherwise.

Here again, I think we'd have a fruitful conversation elsewhere. But, I would not lump the scientific "establishment" in with powerful interests, political, financial, or otherwise. I think it's a different entity for a number of reasons, but I don't know how to engage on that without violating the policies here. So, I'll stop there.

Right along with that goes the often healthy distrust of government upon which our great nation was founded. Many Americans value liberty more than safety, and will gladly put themselves and others at risk in order to safeguard their individual freedom.

This is perhaps the comment that makes me want to discuss the political side with you most. But I can't. So I won't. But it would be fun!

And of course, history shows that government entities generally don't like giving up power once they have it.

Hard to argue with that! No body ever want their "side" to no longer be in power - it's always a thread to... Whatever the fear factor of the day is.

An interesting book on the topic

I've read some of his work. He has a number of really good things to say in the stuff I've come across. I disagree with a bit of it, but that's pretty par for the course with me. I might have to check that one out. Thanks!

all of which are morally neutral

Don't worry, I am comfortable with the realization morals are products of their time and place. Not some absolute, as comforting as that would be. So, when people make cases about their flexibility, I am neither uncomfortable nor taken aback. Sound like it might be a good read!

You work in a skeptical art.

It could be. BTW, now I'm going to call myself an artist! ;)
 

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