Confused by readings

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I am not the best person to be leading this discussion because my understanding is based upon my research and not as a biologist or microbiologist. TwoTankAmin is a member here who has delved into this much more deeply and could provide us with all sorts of references; he wrote the articles pinned at the top of the cycling forum, and these do recommend adding ammonia periodically. However...

I cited a paper in post #49 which determined that the AOB do not die off rapidly in the absence of ammonia; conditions factor in, as I said. But the evidence is very clear that depending upon these conditions, the ammonia can go into a sort of suspended state for weeks and even months. There is also the evidence in other studies that high ammonia levels can inhibit the NOB (nitrite oxidizing bacteria) which may explain why some people have issues with nitrite reduction during cycling; I would suspect the NOB are being inhibited if not killed by the ammonia. Even the AOB themselves can be killed by excessive ammonia.

But that is not really the point, when plants are present. Aquatic plants use ammonia/ammonium as their preferred source of nitrogen, over nitrite and nitrate. I have never cycled a fish take in my life, but I always have floating plants and lower plants in from day one, and then add the fish. If the plants were not taking up the ammonia, all my fish would never have lived past a day or two. In her book Ecology of the Planted Aquarium, Diana Walstad has dozens of citations from scientific studies on the topic.

Plants rapidly detoxify ammonia. As NH3 (toxic ammonia) enters the cell by simple diffusion across the membrane, it may combine with a hydrogen ion (H+) and convert to non-toxic ammonium (NH4+). This NH4+ can be stored in cell vacuoles. The plants use this ammonium as their source of nitrogen. One study found the vacuoles of Nitella clavata to contain over 2,400 mg/l of NH4+. Another method plants use to detoxify ammonia is to immediately use the ammonia to synthesize proteins. Toxic NH3 is combined with stored carbohydrates to form ordinary amino acids. Thus, plants that grow well can tolerate more ammonia because they have more carbohydrates to combine with ammonia [Walstad, p. 21].

I asked Tom Barr on another forum about the level of ammonia plants might be able to handle, in connection with new fish being introduced to an established tank and the aquarist was fretting over a mini-cycle. Tom said it would be almost impossible to add so many fish to an aquarium with healthy plants that the plants would not be able to rapidly handle the ammonia.

As a last thought, if you establish the AOB and NOB by fishless cycling with ammonia, and you have live plants that once they start growing will utilize most of the ammonia being produced by the fish and decomposition, would the AOB and NOB not die off for lack of ammonia/nitrite anyway? You see, it just doesn't make sense why you would waste time cycling the tank when the colony of bacteria is going to die off as soon as you have fish and plants.
The colony of bacteria is not going to die off because the fish are continually adding waste as a food source along with uneaten food. I mean no disrespect but I believe you are misunderstanding the process of the nitrogen cycle and the affect it has on the beneficial bacteria produced. Plants help a great deal in eating up ammonia but donā€™t get it all. The bacteria can just as quickly eat it up. They balance each other. I have a goldfish tank that always has 40 ppm nitrates by tank cleaning day ( which is once a week). It is heavily planted to help with nitrates but the plants canā€™t keep up with the bio load. I agree that there are differing opinions but if you stop to consider that bacteria are living creatures, then you know they have to have a food source to thrive and live. We will simply have to agree to disagree on this one. I am open to new information though.
 
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The colony of bacteria is not going to die off because the fish are continually adding waste as a food source along with uneaten food. I mean no disrespect but I believe you are misunderstanding the process of the nitrogen cycle and the affect it has on the beneficial bacteria produced. Plants help a great deal in eating up ammonia but donā€™t get it all. The bacteria can just as quickly eat it up. They balance each other.

Your reasoning seems out here. If the ammonia occurring from fish and decomposition is all needed to feed the colony of AOB and NOB that you have built during the cycling, where is the source for the ammonia the plants are using? They are faster than the bacteria at grabbing this to begin with, so it stands to reason they would be taking most if not all of it, assuming the tank is not overstocked to begin with. So that means the colony of AOB and NOB is far greater than what can be fed, and by your reasoning without ammonia/nitrite they die off.

There is another factor, and that is nitrate. In planted tanks, nitrate is always less than in tanks without plants, often at zero. And this is not because the plants use the nitrate, it is because they use the ammonia so there is less being converted to nitrite and thus less to nitrate. So in well planted tanks ammonia and nitrite are zero and nitrate may be zero as well. My tanks are in the 0-5 ppm range for nitrate, and some of them are fairly heavily stocked. There are several studies proving beyond doubt that most aquatic plants use ammonium first, and only turn to nitrate when the ammonium is insufficient in balance with other nutrients and light. Plants have to change the nitrate back into ammonium in order to use it, which is why they grab the ammonia/ammonium first.

And when nitrates do rise above safe levels, even plants cannot help. Why? Because they are still using the ammonia/ammonium, and will only deal with nitrates if they are forced to, by sufficient light.
 
You are really confusing me in your explanations but again, letā€™s just agree to disagree. For now, I am going to lean with Dr. Tim. He makes more since to me than you do :). Peace!
 
You are really confusing me in your explanations but again, letā€™s just agree to disagree. For now, I am going to lean with Dr. Tim. He makes more since to me than you do :). Peace!

Dr Tim's method works, but it is one method only. No problem if you want to go down that path, but other members should have the opportunity of being told the science and assessing the options. :drinks:
 
What? How am I affecting other peopleā€™s decisions. You were the one that said the bacteria didnā€™t need to be fed as if I was wrong. Donā€™t put this on me now. I suggested we agree to disagree. Neither was wrong in their belief. Itā€™s all cool. Iā€™m done. Good night, have a good one. :)
 
You were the one that said the bacteria didnā€™t need to be fed as if I was wrong.

You may not have understood my prior posts. There is scientific evidence that nitrifying bacteria do not necessarily die off if ammonia is not added to the tank. I cannot understand why you would not want members to realize this, it is scientific evidence not my thinking. I will not fail to post scientific discoveries that can help us just because it doesn't agree with Dr. Tim.
 
You may not have understood my prior posts. There is scientific evidence that nitrifying bacteria do not necessarily die off if ammonia is not added to the tank. I cannot understand why you would not want members to realize this, it is scientific evidence not my thinking. I will not fail to post scientific discoveries that can help us just because it doesn't agree with Dr. Tim.[/QUOTE
You need to calm down and get over this. Itā€™s not just Dr. Tim. It is the general consensus of most aquarist but as said before, I am open to new ideas. I just wanted to prove that my information was not wrong either as you were indicating. You are the only one continuing this argument. I agree that there is a lot to learn in the science of fish keeping. Thatā€™s how we grow. Your way can be fine too if it works for you. Iā€™m not responding to anymore on this. You are fighting with yourself now and I am puzzled as to why you insist upon it. Take a deep breath and relax. All is good and we are fine. āœŒ
 
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You gents both have it wrong. I am a fan of Dr. H and have corresponded with him in the past. The fishless cycling article on this site is based on his methods which I modified to make them simpler, easier to use and almost impossible to mess up. My interest in the role of bacteria/archaea in planted tanks originated with Dr, H.

He references a research paper from the late 1990s about what happens in the substrate when there are plants v.s. when there are none. The upshot of the paper is that many aquatic plants transport oxygen down to their roots where they release it. The result is the anaerobic regions the roots are in become aerobic. This facilitate the colonization of the nitrifying bacteria (among other things).

Next, to understand the role of plants vs bacteria in nitrification one must understand that plants use NH4 (ammonium) while the bacteria use NH3 (ammonia). Water chemistry turns most of the ammonia into NH4. So the plants will use the NH4 and the bacteria get the NH3. The plants can uptake NH4 much more rapidly than the bacteria can take up NH3. When it comes to removing Total Ammonia (NH3 + NH4), you can remove it all by either removing only NH3 or NH4. That is because as soon as the balance between the two is changed by the removal of one or the other, that component will be replaced by the rebalancing caused by the water. That is one can remove 100 of the total ammonia by removing either one the components or removing both components at the same time.

Plants actually host nitrifying bacteria as the paper will show. Have a read if you want here :
Nitrification and denitrification in the rhizosphere of the aquatic macrophyte Lobelia dortmanna L. by Nils Risgaard-Peterson and Kim Jensen
https://aslopubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.4319/lo.1997.42.3.0529
(There are more similar studies.)

Basically, a planted tank contains nitrifying bacteria. However, because the plants can consume NH4 faster than bacteria can consume NH3, there will be few bacteria doing the work than if there were no plants in the tank. Basically, 100% ammonia removal will never be achieved by plants in a tank, there will always be some amount of bacteria at work. On the other hand, a tank with no plants but adequate bacteria will remove 100%.

When you buy plants or move them between your tanks, you are also moving bacteria.

One more note about plants. They need to establish in a tank to be effective at anything. So, if you are going to rely on plants, plant the tank and give the plants some time to grow roots and adkust to having been transplanted. Also, be aware that not all plants consume ammonia (as NH4) at the same rate. the faster a plant grows, the more and faster it will consume nutrients. This means a lot of stem plants, for one, at the start if one is in a hurry to begin stocking.

Some fish do not live in vegetated waters and some fish eat plants. Not all tanks will contain live plants and not all fish keepers will want to keep them either. I have and still do keep both bare bottom tanks with no plants as well as other tanks that look like jungles. A healthy planted tank is a wonderful way to go if one is wanting plants and willing to care for them. It will likely survive some disasters that a cycled, unplanted tank would not. However, this does not mean one cannot have a very successful and healthy tank without plants.

One last observation. Studies which compare 50% vs 100% plant cover show that even at 100% coverage of the water, there are still nitrifying bacteria present. However, the diversity of the bacteria reduces with 100% coverage, but does not disappear. I am happy to link to studies re this as well.
 
Well, I am not a Gent but thank you so much for this information. It is very interesting! Do you still need to add ammonia or fish food in a planted tank if doing a fishless cycle as I have been taught? That was my issue. I never add plants until my tank is cycled so this is new to me.
 
Sorry about the gents, thing, no insult meant :) Here is the short version, I hope is answers your Qs.

There are multiple ways to use plants in the cycling process. The reason for this is that there are ton off different plants which need different conditions and which consume different things at different rates. For someone like Byron who has great experience using plants, this is not a challenge. But for new fish keepers or even experienced ones new to live plants, this issue needs to be simplified and made less daunting to use.

The basic general rules are, the more nutrients any plant can uptake, the more light and co2 it needs. Floating plants and most stem plants will usually offer the best solution for the beginner. They are generally easy to grow as well. Then there is the volume/coverage factor, or more plants = the more ammonia and even some nitrate are consumed. Making sure the plants are doing OK before adding fish is always a good idea.

It is common to define planting density in a tank as being either light, moderate or heavy. Then if one is trying to do higher lighting and regular fertilization in some form, this will magnify things in terms of nutrient needs and hands on care. But most new to plant folks should not be trying to do higher light, lots of ferts and co2 supplimented tanks.

How one plants a tank using the above principles will determine how much of the maximum capacity fish load any tank can handle in terms of being cycled is safe to put into the tank all at once, Here it is always better to suffer the test of patience by doing it too slowly than to risk harming fish by doing it to rapidly.

As a rule lightly planted tanks need the most bacterial help and heavily planted tanks need the least. This determines how one should modify the instructions in the fishless cycling here which uses 3 ppm of ammonia as the target dosage to use. But most plants will not do well with a lot of ammonia (NH3) in the water. So if you are planting lightly, reduce the ammonia dose to be 2 ppm. If you are moderately planted, reduce it to 1 ppm. If you are planting heavily, you will only need to do a 24 test at 2 ppm. If that doesnt read 0, wait until it does and redo the test. When it produces 0 in 24, add fish

I always suggest planting the tank and allowing some time for them to establish. This is less important if using the stems and floaters to start, You are allowed to change plants over time. The use of plants is going to change all the numbers as they are listed in the fishless article. This is because any of the Ammonia consumed by the plants will not result in nitrite and thus no nitrate either. Only the bacteria will make these. In some cases, with enough plants, you may never see any nitrite or nitrate. You will know the tank is safe when it handles the final test dose in 24 hours or less. For a heavily planted tank, it will handle 2 ppm within 24 almost immediately.

What about doing the cycle and then planting? It creates a few problems. The more plants in a tank, the less work is done by the bacteria in filters and on decor and other hard surfaces in a tank. If you want plants to establish, they need nutrients one of which is NH4. But if you have established enough bacteria to process 3 ppm of ammonia in under 24 hours, that is a fair amount of competition for the plants, even if they do use NH4 faster than the bacteria use NH3. So you should adjust the fishless ammonia dosing according to your intended planting level, do not use 3 ppm. Start with less- 1 or 2 ppm. If you want to plant heavily, just do it, wait a bit as indicated and then do a 2 ppm final test.

If you plant first and give them some time, 10-14 days, while dosing ammonia, the bacteria can only increase based on what the plants do not use. You end up with the right amount of bacteria which takes a lot less time than doing a full cycle first, then planting and waiting for the plants to settle in. Plus, if you want to insure the plants can uses NH4 to the greatest extent they can, you will have to continue adding ammonia every couple of days at a level that insures the bacterial colonies adjust to maintain a proper balance with the plants as to what portion of the ammonia each handles.

Now for adding fish. Here is a suggested guideline: (It assume one will not overstock their tank.)

Lightly planted, add 1/4 of the fish load to start. Test about every 12 hours, When you read 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite and 0 nitrate, you can add the next 1/4 of the fish. Test again and when you have all 0s, add the next 1/4, test again and all 0s means add the rest.

Moderately planted, follow the above method of add and test except add fish in 1/3rd of the final load each time.

Heavily planted use the same method of add and test except add fish 50% with each addition.

-Be sure to change 50 of the water weekly in all of the above.
-Feed sparingly for the first few days after you add fish.
-If anything goes seriously wrong in terms of test results, change water, reduce the rate of adding fish and add fewer. You can always throw in more stems, even floating as well as more floaters to increase ammonia consumption.

Please remember that one of the hardest skills to learn on the way to becoming a seasoned fish keeper is patience. More often than not, acting too quickly has killed more fish than waiting to act. To quote The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy: DON"T PANIC
 
Thanks so much for your time. I knew ammonia was still needed as there has to be a food source. I havenā€™t gotten into more complicated plants as I have several tanks of goldfish that eat most plants like salad. As for my green thumb, I stick to anubias, amazon swords, banana plants, hornwort, and the sort. Hats off to those of you who have the skills to grow more exotic plants. Some heavily planted tanks look amazing!
 
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Nothing in post #68 or #69 counters what I previously posted, though it is explained much better here.

The question of ammonia suddenly dying off within hours if ammonia is not continually added has not been addressed.
 
Nothing feeds the bacteria, it is not needed.
Byron, this was the only part I was ever arguing with you about. You said you didnā€™t need to feed the bacteria and I knew you needed to. I was correct. You got off on all the plant stuff. Why? I donā€™t know! We were simply trying to do a fishless cycle on a tank with no plants. Donā€™t you see how foolish you made all of this? You took a simple process and complicated it into something we werenā€™t even doing. I am done. Have a wonderful Sunday afternoon!
 
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I do respect your research in the plant process. Good job!
 
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Byron, this was the only part I was ever arguing with you about. You said you didnā€™t need to feed the bacteria and I knew you needed to. I was correct. You got off on all the plant stuff. Why? I donā€™t know! We were simply trying to do a fishless cycle on a tank with no plants. Donā€™t you see how foolish you made all of this? You took a simple process and complicated it into something we werenā€™t even doing. I am done. Have a wonderful Sunday afternoon!

AOB will not all immediately die off if ammonia is not added, subject to factors such as pH and temperature. This is according to the scientific paper I mentioned earlier, is fact.

As for the plant stuff, that is why it does not really matter, again subject to other factors as TTA has clearly set out with more detail than I used.

So far nothing in these posts has countered those statements.
 

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