Co2 System Problems (many)

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mangoed

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Hi, I’m having considerable trouble with a CO2 Injection System and wondered if anyone could help.

The product in question is a D-D Complete CO2 Set:

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Although this was supposedly a representative photo, the product is no longer supplied with two gauges (only a low pressure gauge) or this bubble-counter/diffuser. It is, however, supplied with a pump. It is referred to as the Turbo Plus Model (the Standard Model is now unavailable, apparently).

Unfortunately, the instructions provided have not been comprehensively updated and appear to reflect an installation procedure that has changed significantly.

Firstly the regulator assembly...

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It looks straight-forward enough, with the coarse regulation valve and low pressure gauge on the left; the solenoid and CO2 outlet in the middle; and the fine regulation valve of the right.

Strangely (well I find it so), the markings on the coarse valve indicate ‘+’ clockwise and ‘-‘ anticlockwise, but the marking on the fine valve show the opposite:

Image09.JPG
Image10.JPG


Well, no matter, both close in a clockwise direction and open anticlockwise.

Before screwing onto the CO2 bottle, the instructions say to “Ensure that the coarse regulation valve E is fully unscrewed in an anti clockwise direction†– I assume this to mean, fully open. Also, “Ensure that the fine regulation valve D is fully tight in a clockwise direction†– I assume this to mean, fully closed. After attaching the CO2, the pressure gauge reads zero.

Can someone explain what the pressure gauge is actually measuring and why when fully open, it reads 0 bar/psi?

After plugging in the solenoid, the instructions state to “open up the main coarse valve E until the gauge reads 5 Bars†(this is for testing purposes not operation). Well, the coarse valve is already fully open but if I close it (turning clockwise), the pressure reading rises until it reaches 4.8 bar when fully closed. Note that it never reaches 5! If I open it again, the pressure reading reduces slightly to 4.0 when fully open but never back to 0. Why is this? This may be something to do with how these items work (I am a complete novice) and I have noticed that the pressure can be reduced to 0 by fully opening the fine valve when the coarse valve is itself open. However, the instructions say “Turn the pressure back down to zero by using the coarse regulation valve†but it won’t reduce to 0 using this valve only by releasing the gas using the fine valve!

Anyway, I can achieve the operating pressure by seemingly closing the coarse valve until the gauge reads 1 bar. I can then open the fine valve (anti-clockwise) to release the CO2 through the needle valve.

This brings me to the next problem, the bubble counter.

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The instructions say (possibly referring to the Standard Model and the different bubble counter/diffuser supplied with it) “The disk diffuser supplied with the unit is designed to act both as a bubble counter and to diffuse the CO2 into the water which it does via a sintered disk in one endâ€. I assume that this is not true of the model with a pump (the one which I have)?

They go on to state “Fill the diffuser ¾ full with water from the aquariumâ€, “Place the diffuser near the bottom of the tank†(their emphasis), “Open up the fine regulation valve D until bubbles are observed entering the diffuserâ€. They do not say whether to place internally or externally but I’m assuming that with the Standard Model it should be placed internally. The instructions then go on to show a poor-quality diagram of the bubble counter placed externally near the top of the tank!

If I am using the pump, what is the correct placement for the bubble counter? Is it the correct way up in the photograph above (with the CO2 feeding in from below)? Should it still be filled with water – there is no obvious way to do so? In fact, what does the item pictured above actually do? (If it isn’t to be filled with water then how can any bubbles be counted and so how is it a bubble counter?)

Finally, the pump.

Image12.JPG


Again, I’m assuming that this is the correct placement, completely submerged with the CO2 line feeding in at the bottom and the power line attaching at the top? When I start it up it makes the most awful grinding/grating sound. It does release some large bubbles (mostly from the sides of the unit, not the nozzle) but it does this when the CO2 is supplied whether powered-on or not! Clearly something is wrong.

I know that this is a litany of questions about every single part of the injection system but really the whole thing has me extremely confused! I’d really appreciate any assistance.

Thanks.

-dan
 
You have the exact same setup as me, took some interpreting of the instructions as mine were also aimed mainly at the 'turbo' kit supplied, instead of the diffuser setup I thought I was ordering.

I have not used the pump bit, instead I just run the CO2 into a ceramic diffuser that I already had, the pump is way too big for my 15-gallon.

The valves open/close as labelled on the dials themselves. A minus (-) sign shows direction of closure and a plus (+) sign indicates direction of opening, so they do not both open/close in the same direction as you have explained.

Before screwing the bottle into the regulator etc you turn the coarse regulator fully anti-clockwise to close it, not open it, the fine regulation valve is screwed fully clockwise to close it.

You've got the direction of open/closed mixed up hence you think your gauge is reading backwards.

The gauge reads the pressure coming out of the bottle. When the coarse regulation valve is fully open (turned fully clockwise) you should read ~5 or above. You should be able to turn the dial anti-clockwise slowly until the pressure drops to ~1 as suggested in the instructions. With the gauge at ~1 you can then open the fine regulation valve (needle valve) anti-clockwise very gradually to get the desired bubble-count: I find I have to open it a little, wait for a bit then count the bubbles, as it takes a minute or two to settle.

I have my tubes, bubble counter etc as follows:

CO2 outlet tube from regulator goes into bubble counter under my tank
Bubble counter goes direct into my diffuser, for you it would go directly into the pump

The green part of the bubble counter should be connected to the regulator and the clear bit of the bubble counter should be connected to the pump/diffuser. I had to force fill my bubble counter with a bit of water to make it any use, I am not sure on the official method of filling it slightly as the instructions do not mention it. The bubble counter also acts as a non-return valve hence the need to make sure it is the right way round.

Hope this helps, let me know if it doesn't make sense and I will try to help more!
 
As an addendum, my set did come with the relevant setup diagram for the pump etc, it was in the section labelled 'Turbo Plus Model'.

If using the pump, I would personally put this on the same timer as the solenoid, no point running the pump when there is no CO2 going through it!
 
Thanks nry for your help - much appreciated.

The valves open/close as labelled on the dials themselves. A minus (-) sign shows direction of closure and a plus (+) sign indicates direction of opening, so they do not both open/close in the same direction as you have explained.

Before screwing the bottle into the regulator etc you turn the coarse regulator fully anti-clockwise to close it, not open it, the fine regulation valve is screwed fully clockwise to close it.

You've got the direction of open/closed mixed up hence you think your gauge is reading backwards.

It was my assumption that both valves would operate in the same direction. Also, I thought that one could look at the length of 'exposed stem' and probably determine whether it was open or closed.

For instance looking at these photos, from left to right:

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It would be my assumption that the first image shows the coarse valve fully closed, the second the coarse valve fully open, the third the fine valve fully closed and the fourth the fine valve fully open. However, you are saying that the first two are the wrong way round? That the first image shows the coarse valve fully open and the second the coarse valve fully closed?

The final reason I thought that the coarse valve should be open when attaching is the description of fully unscrewed in an anti clockwise direction (the fine valve's closure is described as fully tight in a clockwise direction). It seemed to me that fully unscrewed meant open (especially if fully tight means closed).

The gauge reads the pressure coming out of the bottle. When the coarse regulation valve is fully open (turned fully clockwise) you should read ~5 or above.

Mine reads 4.8 when fully clockwise - is this near enough? However, it does not return to zero when fully anti-clockwise - is that expected?

You should be able to turn the dial anti-clockwise slowly until the pressure drops to ~1 as suggested in the instructions.

If I turn the dial anti-clockwise the pressure never drops to one (only about 4 from 4.8). The only way I can get the pressure to 1 is by starting from zero and turning the valve clockwise (if it goes higher then it cannot be turned back down).

I had to force fill my bubble counter with a bit of water to make it any use, I am not sure on the official method of filling it slightly as the instructions do not mention it. The bubble counter also acts as a non-return valve hence the need to make sure it is the right way round.

This is partly why I wonder if the bubble counter had to be filled with water at all when used with the pump. It is possible to force fill the counter with water but it really is force fill - there seems to be no obvious way to fill it! But if it wasn't filled with water then how would I be able to count the bubbles and regulate the CO2 supply?

According to the instructions, the non-return valve is incorporated into the needle valve. This is labelled E - Non-return check valve on the diagram.

-dan
 
Nope, both valves operate in different directions, and the length of shown spindle is irrelevant. Ignore everything except the +/- symbols on the dials, these show the correct way to turn things.

4.8 is near enough to 5 as far as I am concerned.

I also had to force-fill the bubble counter, as you say, without water in it is useless. I assume this is the correct thing to do and has been fine so far. There does seem to be a non-return valve in the bubble counter as I could only force water in from one direction.

I get to '1' on the gauge by going up to this from zero. Going down will possibly not work well because there will be pressure build-up in the tubing etc that will affect the dial reading, possibly why the instructions tell you to fill the gauge to 5 to check for leaks then close the coarse valve and then opn the fine valve to release pressure, before closing the fine valve and then opening the coarse valve enough to reach '1'.
 
Nope, both valves operate in different directions, and the length of shown spindle is irrelevant. Ignore everything except the +/- symbols on the dials, these show the correct way to turn things.

4.8 is near enough to 5 as far as I am concerned.

I also had to force-fill the bubble counter, as you say, without water in it is useless. I assume this is the correct thing to do and has been fine so far. There does seem to be a non-return valve in the bubble counter as I could only force water in from one direction.

I get to '1' on the gauge by going up to this from zero. Going down will possibly not work well because there will be pressure build-up in the tubing etc that will affect the dial reading, possibly why the instructions tell you to fill the gauge to 5 to check for leaks then close the coarse valve and then opn the fine valve to release pressure, before closing the fine valve and then opening the coarse valve enough to reach '1'.

Okay, I'll give it another go. There may still be a problem with my pump (maybe it was the lack of water in the bubble counter) - I'll see.

Thanks very much for your help, nry.

-dan
 
Water in the bubble counter (or not!) shouldn't affect the pump, but I guess there could be a fair bit of trapped air in the pump which could take a while to clear. I know my internal filter and also my HOB filter can release bubbles for ages after first being switched on, sometimes even all of a sudden after being powered on for a fair length of time. Turn the pump off and give it a good shake (upside down too) in the tank to get rid of any air inside it. Never used mine though, too big for my tank, may do in the future if I ever go beyond 15-gallons!
 
The reason the pressure gauge never returns to zero after you close it is because the gas has nowhere to go until the fine adjustment valve is opened a bit. All that has happened is that you've pressurised the gauge. Just closing the coarse valve again will not release the pressure until the gas can escape from the gauge mechanism. If you fully close the fine valve then open and then close the coarse valve you should be showing approx. 4.8 on the gauge. Now slightly open the fine valve and the pressure should fall away to zero.
To get a 1 bar pressure reading open the coarse valve until the gauge shows approx 5 (with the fine valve shut). Now slightly open the fine valve until you see bubbles in the bubble counter (or simply run the tubing into a bottle of water and wait for bubbles). A few bubbles a second should be fine. Start closing the coarse valve until the pressure starts dropping. It may take a short while to stabilise. Alter the coarse valve until the required reading is shown. You may have to alter the coarse and fine valves in an iterative process to get the flow and pressure you need.

WK
 
Thanks, guys. I think I've managed to get the bubble counter going okay - however, the pump is still making an unpleasant grating sound (I've recorded it and attached the file to this post) and I don't see any CO2 being dispersed into the water.

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-dan
 

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