Co2, Ph And Other Such Oddities

Nice explanation Jame, I had kinda thought this myself but never really bothered to look into it! Does it therefore mean the test kits we use are hideously inaccurate? Thus given us false CO2 readings? Generally to high?

Sam
 
|Many Thanks James,

I suppose if I'd actually bothered to look closely at a CO2 chart and think about it, I might have been able to work it out for myself eventually. :blush:

I'm going to take a water sample tonight and let it stand for 24 hours.
I'm also going to take PH and KH readings, so I can compare.

Cheers
Al
 
I'd be interested to know what you find out Al.

Sam
 
Ok, ive done the tests.

30G tank
1 bubble per second
pH of tank: 6.6
KH of tank: 8
pH of standing water after 4hours: 7.4

So it looks like im just under 30ppm?
 
But surly the ph of the tank is supposed to be lower than the ph of the standing water????
 
Yep, you are right. I accidently put them in the wrong place. Edited it now :rolleyes: Silly me.
 
Yep Fred, think you need to increase the CO2 rate :)

Sam
 
Does it therefore mean the test kits we use are hideously inaccurate?
Careful, I had a right ear bashing about saying that in my PFK EI article! :lol:

But yes, generally I think this is true.

I use a calibrated digital pH meter and the "1 point method" now for CO2.

I never test for NO3 and PO4. Maths and 50% water changes keep me on track for that.

I digress.
 
I must admit George, Ive stopped testing my tanks. Used to do it weekly, but it seems pointless if they really are that bad. Once you're out of the cycle period, there doesn't really seem much point. As you say water changes and good tank husbandry will keep on top of most things.

So is the "1 point method" what we should be recommending from now on?

Sam
 
So is the "1 point method" what we should be recommending from now on?
I still think the pH/KH/CO2 charts have their use.

If nothing else they teach newcomers the relationship between the three factors that is useful for basic water chemistry understanding. After all these charts have been used for decades with success. I never had any trouble before and for the record my Nutrafin pH kits and KH kits were pretty good and in comparison to this "new" method, for me at least, give very similar results.
 
Dont get me wrong, Im not knocking the charts, as you say they are useful, just wonder that if most people get iffy readings it could mislead them (like it has done with me) into thinking their CO2 is high enough. Guess the 1 point method, is useful as a backup comparison test.

I guess Tom Barr is right algae is due to CO2! Mine I realise now has never, ever been enough! :lol: doh! That's why I've got staghorn, BBA, GSA and thread algae in my nano! :lol:

Sam
 
This thread got me thinking last night that perhaps I'd test my tank. I currently work on how the plants are reacting and pearling to know if my CO2 levels are OK. I normally keep my tank at a pH of 6.25 to 6.30 which I know is a good level. Any lower and the fish start to show signs of stress. My measured KH is 5.5. So with my freshly calibrated Hannah pH meter I measured the standing tank water which came out at 7.30 so was well pleased with myself as this is exactly 1 pH higher, so this method seems to work well for my tank.

James
 
Just thought i would let everyone know the results of my standing water tests after this thread was pointed out to me last night by James c after my post about my algae problem which turns out is BBA.


PH of Tank Water 7.0

PH of Standing Water 7.4


but according to the practical fishkeeping website calculators i have a co2 level of just over 30ppm


My KH IS 11,

but from the above comments it is obvious that this is not the case, so going to crank up the co2 a little and see what happens.


Cheers Gordon
 
Sounds good, so long as the fish aren't suffering they shouldn't be a problem.

Sam
 
As you can see from the above example, such charts, which have been a mainstay for 20 years, are influenced to a large degree by other factors than CO2.

This is not a simple issue, nor a trite one either.
EI showed folks a very simple effective method to avoid testing, maintain a clean well balanced tank.
Prior to that, I showed that PO4 does not induce algae and tested various methods to actively induce algae in an otherwise balanced healthy tank.

Redoing and defining a better method to account for the variations for the CO2 issue is no small advance.

It is actually quite large and is a long time coming.
Once folks relized that they had a safe assumption for ther nutrients and their effects on algae blooms, they could better isolate the CO2 issue.

Now folks are ready to move forward there.
I'm not privy to the "gas the fish" and then back off 0.2pH unit method personally, I've never had to do that and find it a tad unethically personally.

Sorry, not a supporter of water boarding either.........

I think watching the CO2 over the course of a day by measuring with a reference KH and pH probe is ideal.
It addresses the accuracy issue with KH.
It still uses the pH accurcay pH probe method and then we can use the pH/KH/CO2 table with far more confidence.

For many years, folks have made some rather poor assumptions in our hobby.
Questioning the basic tenents we have assumed is not a bad idea.
Especially when they do not explain the observations!!!


This was true for excess PO4 = algae. Even 12 years later, I still cannot induce any species of algae with excess PO4.
This was true for plants preferring soft water as a generalization
This was true for CO2, rather than nutrient excesses causing the algae blooms
This was true for heating cables, they still don't work as claimed.
This was true for fish not being able to handle much beyond 10-15ppm of CO2
This was true for red plants needing more Fe than green plants and other such mythical assumptions many bought into.

Some don't like it when I question things, but a lot more advances come from this than the old way of accepting and trying to make assumptions based merely on anecdotal observations rather than testing and experimentation.

That has left folks with a lot of unexplained gaps and ???'s and no real answers, nor good hypothesis. Some might sound okay, but the hypothesis still do not support the observations in nature nor in our tanks.

So when you falsify one hypothesis and reject it, you need to find an alternative one that better fits the observation/s.

The alternative hypothesis I've put forth are much harder to argue with and explain a lot more than any from the past in the hobby.

Some like to argue with me and not offer any alternative hypothesis in leiu of the old ones which cannot be supported by the older hypothesis. If you don't know and are going off some belief system rather than critically thinking, then it's no longer an argument B)

The pH prove + a reference KH solution in a larger air gap chamber will provide a very accurate relatively quick method to measure CO2 to within about 1-2ppm for any type of tank water or other confounding KH/pH issues.

I have a simple prototype which I've got a patent pending on as well as many other related versions. I have no issues with folks DIYing their own, a local plant club making a bunch etc for the hobbyists, but I've had it with companies snitching ideas from hobbyists without payment/credit etc.

I'll post the details on my site.
It's simple and can be pulled in/out of the tank easily and used in many tanks. It takes about 1/2 hour or so to get a stable reading assuming the CO2 is stable also over that same 1/2 hour peroid.

Yes, there are still assumptions, but it's better than the other methods so far.
That is how science evolves. It progressively gets better and more complex in many ways.
The next guy can figure out how to increase the response time, I have a simple way to do that, but it's harder to make and hard to keep stable, always a trade off :X

Regards,
Tom Barr
 

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