Cloudy Water For A Week, Now Ammonia Too, Cannot Get Rid Of, Seems To

[buonnatale2u]

I hate to have to have my first post under the Emergency section, but I guess I need some help asap.

I have been reading through the forum for a few days now, just to try and get as much info as I could on my own because I did not want to be one of those newbies that just posts a problem they have and never show up again. I look forward to being a member on this forum!

Anyway, I have always had tropical freshwater fish with small tanks. However, I recently went to my first large tank, a 40 Gallon Hexagonal Tank ( actual gallon size I believe is more like 38 gallons to be exact).
It has been set up for just over a month now.

I have an AquaClear 300/70 filter, which uses 3 step filter media.
When filling, I used some drinking water, but mostly tap along with Stress Coat and Quick Start. I also squeezed in a sponge of some already established material from my 10 gallon tank. This was the first time I ever used Quick Start and thought it work great! I had cloudy water for only the first 2 days, then it was clear. At 3 days in, I put in 5 guppies with no issues at all.

I was ready no Ammonia and a PH of around 7.4 with no issues at all. I weekly began to add some new fish. I have added only cummunity fish, tetras, glo-fish, guppies, a couple bottom feeders, etc.

Everything was going fine for over a month, Water was clear, and Ammonia seemed to be reading at 0. PH seemed to be a little higher than I was used to @ 7.6, but all was working well, so I did not want to mess with it.

So, about a week ago, I got a few new ornaments to add to the tank. Everything in the tank is specifically made for aquariums and are suppose to be fish safe. All were rinsed off well. But It was a pain to get some of them in being the tank is 24 inches deep. But I tried not to get my hand in arm into the tank too much, and used a long pair of tongs to try and get the plants settled in. But still, I could not help my hands being in the water at times.

After fooling around with adding new ornaments and a hydor 4 color light/bubbler, the water got cloudy again. I figured this was normal, and even though there was not much gunk at the bottom yet to stir around since it had only been up for a month, I figured it would clear up in a day or so. I even did another Ammonia reading and at one point, it seemed to go up to only .25ppm for a little bit, but seemed to go back to 0ppm again. However, the water has remained cloudy for over a week now.

At the beginning of the week, I was doing just small water changes, because I was afraid of possibly causing the tank to start a new cycle since the water was still so new. So I was only removing and replacing about 2 gallons or so just to try and get the water to become clearer.

Anyway, a week or week and a half later now, the water is still cloudy. In the meantime, after doing some reseach on here and the internet, I finally bought a Master API kit. I also purchased PRIME as do to all the great things I have read about it.

So, this brings us up to about 2 days ago. I was now the Ammonia was reading at 1 ppm even with small water changes daily since the cloudy water started. My first Master Kit readings were
Ammonia was now 1PPM
PH hit max at 7.6 (blue), so I decided to test using the HIgh range PH test, and I tested at the very minimum of 7.4 with the high range, so I do not know how to figure this out!
Nitrites 0 PPM
Nitrates between 5-10 PPM


So, I decided to do a larger water change that day, along with using PRIME for the first time instead of Stress Coat, and I also used Quick Start too with the new water. I did about a 20% water change. The next morning, I was still reading about the same in all areas. So last night, I did a 25% water change. At the end of the night, I had the Ammonia back down to .50PPm.

Today, my numbers are the same as last night,
Ammonia .50 PPM
PH regular test still tops out at 7.6 and the PH high range test still bottoms out at 7.4, I still do not get this
Nitrites 0 PPM
Nitrates 5-10 PPM

Water is still very cloudy


My fish seemed to be doing ok through out all of this for the most part, only a fish here and there during this whole process the last 6 weeks or so. And thought adding the PRIME was helping the Ammonia not to affect them.

But now today, even with the slightly better readings, and the addition of PRIME, for the first time, I have lost a few GloFish, and their fins seemed to be affected a bit? Does Ammonia do that?

I took out the rest of my Glofish and my couple of Goramies (sp?) since they seemed to be a litte stressed, and put these few fish in my 10 gallon tank for now.
However, the others seem to be acting ok. But I do not want to lose anymore fish. I have no idea what is causing this. There is nothing in the filter, or nothing dead in the tank that could of caused this. It all seemed to start after I moved stuff around to add more ornaments (which I rinsed off before hand) and it seemed to progress and become worse over this past week and a half.

I have even tested my tap for Ammonia and it shows 0 PPM.

I have tried everything I can, and have read all that I can before asking for help, but now that I have fish dying, I think I need some!

Should I keep water changing? Or is this causing it to start new cycles again or what?

I know you are suppose to change the one filter once a month, but thought since this is a new set up, I should not change it yet. OR should I change the filter already?

If I missed anything, please let me know!

Thanks again so much! Christy

 

[slimeneo]

No, you should never change the filter media unless it's literally falling apart, which would take many of years for that to happen. Never rinse it out with tap water. You can put it in the dirty tank water you take out for water changes and get some dirt out but other than that, don't touch it when you're cycling because that's where all the beneficial bacteria live.

There isn't bacteria in the water, so don't be afraid to change the water. Since you're doing a fish-in cycle, you'll need to do a LOT of water changes to make sure your fish are safe. I would go ahead and do another maybe 50% water change to keep ammonia at 0. Anything above 0 is dangerous for the fish, that's why they are dying.

The water being cloudy is most likely bacteria forming, so don't worry too much about that. But I would suggest putting off adding any more ornaments.

I assume you've read some articles/threads about cycling, but here's a simple rundown.
Fish poop, and that's ammonia which is toxic to them. The bacteria you need is to convert this ammonia to nitrite. However, nitrite is toxic to fish as well, so the other bacteria converts that to nitrate which is not as harmful (only harmful at really high levels, 5-10ppm is normal).

Your nitrate is at a normal level, maybe because of the plants/ornaments you have in there. However, once your tank starts cycling it should increase, as well as nitrite levels. You need to keep an eye on these stats- water changes to keep ammonia and nitrite as close to 0 as possible.

How many fish are in your 40 gal now? And is the existing filter in your 10 gal still there? I would suggest you keep your fish in your 10 gal until you get it all sorted out, assuming that your 10 gallon is already cycled.

Don't worry, you're not the only one who have had these problems, I myself have done a fish-in cycle after getting no information from LFS about it.

 

[fluttermoth]

Hi Christy, to the forum.

It sounds like either your tank wasn't cycled properly, or something has disrupted it badly.

Your water changes need to be bigger; start by doing one large one; drain the water right down, leaving just enough water for the fish to swim upright before refilling (temperature matched, dechlorinated water, of course!). Then do enough (it might mean more big ones, or more than one a day, I'm afraid) that neither the ammonia or nitrite ever go above 0.25ppm.

Any level over that can kill or cause long term health problems for fish.

Don't ever change anything inside the filter, except the white filter floss, if your filter has any of that. The rest of the stuff is where 99% of all your good bacteria live. Just wash off the actual dirt, in old tank water, if it starts to look clogged or you see the filter slow slowing down. It might be a big help if you add some of the actual sponge from your mature filter, as that should have some of the good bacteria, as long as you've haven't changed it too recently. If you have, you should watch that tank for raised ammonia and nitrite too...

You won't disrupt your cycle by doing large water changes; it's the filter that cycles (by growing the good bacteria), not the tank or the water.

Hopefully once you get the water right your fish will be ok, but I do think I should warn you that you may lose more, due to the effects of the raised ammonia they've been through.

Hope that helps; don't hesitate to post again if you need more help, or don't understand anything

 

[buonnatale2u]

Thank you for the welcomes!

Yes, I was sure it would not be right to have to change any part of the filter yet, I just wanted to make sure. Unlike any tank I had before, this has a 3 part filter, bottom is a sponge, middle is the charcoal, and top is a bunch of white piece things that collect good bacteria. I even have in there, a very small all in one filter that was old from my other tank I had running through with the new filter parts to add some of its good bacteria.

I just wanted to make sure that taking out water was not making the tank recycle. Because the water was testing fine for weeks after its first initial ammonia spike the first week then it was at 0 the rest of the time. That is why I thought maybe I took out too much good water during a water change. But now it seems from all your info that that is not the case.

So I think I will do another major water change, and instead of my keep filling it all the way to the top again, just get as much out now and leave the tank no fully filled so it is easier to make more of a percentage of ammonia gone at a time when i remove and replace water.

If I am now using PRIME, do I still use Stress Coat? I stopped using Stress Coat now that i have the PRIME. I am also using Quick Start. It is hard to find a correct measure for smaller water amounts, because the PRIME nor the QS give per gallon ratios. I wish I knew how many drops it takes for a gallon.

When using PRIME, does it work instantly like Stress Coat? Since it is such a large tank, I have nowhere to keep such large amounts of water to sit for hours, So I have been pretty much been making a gallon of tap water at a time in 5 minute intervals when water changing.

Here is an odd question, even if you have clean hands/arms, is there anything like oils or such that come off your body that makes the water cloudy? I wish there was a tool I could use to reach all the way down in the tank since it is 24 inchs tall.

It is just weird, because everything was testing fine until the last week and a half. Weird. I just feel so depressed my fish are dying, and thought I was doing really well up until this point.

Another question, if my tank did not cycle at all, I would not have any Nitrates as I do now, right? I only have one small live plant in there now and a moss ball, otherwise they are all fake. I was waitng to add a nice selection of live plants but after this last thing that happened adding ornaments, I have not wanted to add anything else.

As long as I do not have to wait to add new water, i will get on this ASAP!! Thanks again for your help! I look foward to using the forum! Especially once i get over these initial issues!

 

[slimeneo]

I'm pretty sure the plants are the reason why you have nitrates- not because your tank was cycled. My only theory as to why problems have started in the last week is how large your tank is, so it dilutes the ammonia. However, the ammonia builds up (because there isn't enough bacteria to convert it yet) and probably led to your fish dying last week

You only need to use one of the dechlorinators- either PRIME or stress coat, not both. I've never used quick start, but shouldn't it say on the label how many drops? I use Tetra's Aqua Safe, it's supposed to work in seconds. Not sure about the other brands though sorry! But it should say on the label

I put my hand/arms in my tank all the time, I'm pretty sure there isn't anything that could cloud the tank from our skin. I could be wrong though. But I always rinse my hands before doing so, just with tap water and NOT soap (soap is extremely deadly to fish).

Not filling all the way to the top is a good idea Are the fish all in the 10 gal now or are there some fish still in your 50 gal?

 

[buonnatale2u]

I have fish some fish in the big tank and some in the 10 gallon. I am afraid to put all of them in the 10 gallon and have the one good tank go haywire with too many fish in it. Unless, you think I should put them all in the 10 anyway,

I have the tank 1/3 empty now, which is as low as I can go and still have the filter working properly. I am adding and taking water out back and forth, so I can still keep it only 2/3 full while still putting new water in.

As for my heater, I have a Marineland heater that treats up to a 90 gallon tank! However, i do not think it reads the correct temp. I had it orginally at 78F and it would stay green and never go on, put it to 80F, and did not go on much, now it is at 82F and works, but my other themometers read only between 76-78F ( I went and bought an extra one just to make sure, both themometers ready about the same, yet the heater is turned up)
Sometimes the water feels warm, sometimes it feels cold. I do not know what I should do about that. I have another smaller heater I could use. I could turn the heater up more, I was just afraid if all of the sudden I turn it up past 82F, it would really start working and fry the fish!

No fish died last week, it was only today. It were glofish danios. That is what is so weird, the tank tested fine for over a month with no issues. The Gouramies looked a little stressed, so I took them out. I still have a pair of Creamsicle Mollies I am debating whether to take out or not, and 3 large Glofish Tetras ( the large tetra kind, not the danios which are the ones I lost today) Although them seem fine in there now. But still not sure what to do/

I even set up a small 2 gallon filter set up just for more room to take fish out. But I really do not think i can take all of them out of the big tank without them getting killed from overcrowding the 10 gallon if that makes sence.

Just so frustrating when you think everything is ok then it all goes down the drain!

 

[slimeneo]

It's fine if you keep the fish in the tank- you'll just do a fish-in cycle and the fish will be the source of ammonia.

Not sure about the heater though, is it really cold in your house? as long as your fish aren't stressed, I think 80ish would be okay (my tank is usually at 82F... no heater)

Ah, it's okay. The tank will be cycled eventually!

 

[buonnatale2u]

The one plant I have is very tiny and actually was a plant I started from a bulb I guess you would call it. It only has 3 leaves on it so far, so I do not know how many nitrates could of came from that one tiny start.

I wonder if the heater is not working properly, because I have it at 82F and my 2 themometers are only reading 76F. I am wondering if I should turn it up because maybe its temp gauge is off.

I just feel like i am starting from scratch again! UGG!

Oh, I forgot to ask, what is white filter floss? I do not think that my filter has this. It has 3 separate parts, a sponge, a bag of charcoal, and a bag of white things that look like pieces of chalk cut up, which are suppose to inhabit good bacteria.

The filter has a good bunch of growth on it seems. BUt no, I have not touched anything in it and actually have a small all in one catridge in there from another tank that has good bacteria on it that has been in there since I put the tank together. Plus I squeezed a sponge from a good tank into the water when I first filled it a month ago.

Do you think another squeeze of a sponge from an already established tank would help get the newer water going?

 

[PrairieSunflower]

I was wondering if maybe you disturbed the bottom of the tank when adding plants and ornaments. You said you don't have much gunk at the bottom as the tank was running only a month... and also said you try and avoid putting her hand/arm in.... so, that's made me wonder if you are using your vaccume to dig deep into the gravel to suck up everything underneath. In my large tank (which currently has only 3 adult fish), even at the mid-week small water change I've getting debris out of the gravel.... so, with your tank having a lot more fish than mine, there should be quite a build up under the gravel... any disturbance would have released a lot of rotting matter and ammonia.

Oh, I forgot to ask, what is white filter floss? I do not think that my filter has this. It has 3 separate parts, a sponge, a bag of charcoal, and a bag of white things that look like pieces of chalk cut up, which are suppose to inhabit good bacteria.

Your filter sounds similar to one of mine. Filter floss is similar to a sponge, its what is used in some types of filters. Your sponge is doing the same job that filter floss would do... as is the biomax compartment (the cut up chalk looking stuff).

 

[Essjay]

Filter floss looks like pillow stuffing and it is used in a filter to trap very fine particles. Not all filters have it, none of mine do. The reason it needs to be changed so often is that it clogs quickly and is hard to wash. For those filters that use it, it is cheaper to buy a roll of filter floss designed for ponds and cut it up. That way it doesn't cost much to change regularly. Before I removed the built in filter from my Juwel tank, I had to change the white pad every two weeks as it clogged in about a week (it was first in the water flow and was supposed to catch the large debris as well as fine particles) and fell apart on the second wash.

buonnatale, from your description your filter doesn't have any filter wool. The sponge will catch the debris and house some bacteria. The white things (usually made of a cermaic substance) house bacteria, and carbon removes things like the colour from bogwood and medication, and houses some bacteria.
With the media you have:
The sponge should be squeezed in the water you take out at a water change to get rid of the brown stuff that will build up on it. A gentle squeeze is all that's needed, don't squeeze it to death. The sponge will never look like new again. It will last for years before it needs replacing, only when it either falls apart or won't go back to shape after washing
The 'bag of white things' needs swishing in old tank water when they get dirty. They only need replacing in several years' time when they start to crumble
The bag of charcoal is the only thing to replace as it will get full in a few days of being in your tank. Or you could just leave it there without changing. It will stop adsorbing things but it will still work as a home for the filter bacteria. A lot of us don't use charcoal (aka carbon) except for removing medication after treatment. My current filters don't come with carbon, but with ones I've had in the past I replaced the carbon with more sponge. At the moment, I don't suggest you replace yours - you need every bacterium you have, you can't afford to get rid of any yet. But once your filter has fully cycled and been running a while, you could think about replacing the charcoal with more ceramics (the white things) or another sponge cut up to fit the available space.

 

[buonnatale2u]

Well, I did a large water change last night. Today, these are my numbers

Ammonia @ .50 PPM still the same
PH @ 7.2 which a little lower, but good because I think I was too high
Nitrites @ 0 PPM
Nitrates @ 5 PPM which is slightly lower than yesterday


If the Ammonia was from digging in the gravel and such, will this ammonia have to convert to nitrite then to nitrate as it does when starting a cycle? Or do I just get rid of it little by little with water changes?

I know the tank has only be up for about 6 weeks now, but the water was testing fine before I added the ornaments.

I was hoping with all of the water changing last night, the ammonia would of read a little less, but it is the same.

Do you think now that I have PRIME in there, that the ammonia is not harmful? According to the PRIME bottle, it converts harmful ammonia into non-harmful ammonia so the fish will not die, however, since it is still ammonia in some way, it will still give a positive when testing. Does anyone know more about this PRIME, and as long as I am adding it to the water, I do not have to move out anymore fish from the tank>?

Thanks again for all of the help! Christy

 

[PrairieSunflower]

I have never used Prime so I can't help you with that.

The thing about disturbing what might have been under the gravel is it would release more ammonia than the bacteria in your tank is used to handling thus that is very much like starting another cycle. So, you will have to continue with the water changes until its consistently giving you normal results again. Shouldn't take as long as cycling a tank from fresh as you should already have established bacteria in your tank. You just need to bring the ammonia down to a level where your bacteria can kick in again and take care of the process.

If that is what happened, it can best be prevented from happening again by doing a regular vaccume of the gravel right down deep to the very bottom of the aquarium across the entire bottom.

These things happen to most of us when we are starting out. One of my early mistakes was squeezing out my sponge only half way and then replacing it, turning on the filter and blowing all the loose particles straight into my tank... causing a similar sort of mishap.

 

[buonnatale2u]

Ok, so at some point, I should see nitrites rise up again? How long do you think it would take for this to start up again? I know you said it should not take as long as the first cycle.

Do you think I should take the sponge from my 10 gallon and squeeze some of it into the big tank to help it out or no?

A few of the glofish left are losing their color from their backs, I assume this is from the ammonia and not some sort of disease?

I have a regular cyphon for the gravel. I have yet to use it yet since the tank was just set up though. Do you use a cyphon or is there an actual "vaccume" out there for fish tanks? Would be interested in that!

 

[PrairieSunflower]

Ok, so at some point, I should see nitrites rise up again? How long do you think it would take for this to start up again? I know you said it should not take as long as the first cycle.

Do you think I should take the sponge from my 10 gallon and squeeze some of it into the big tank to help it out or no?

A few of the glofish left are losing their color from their backs, I assume this is from the ammonia and not some sort of disease?

I have a regular cyphon for the gravel. I have yet to use it yet since the tank was just set up though. Do you use a cyphon or is there an actual "vaccume" out there for fish tanks? Would be interested in that!

I'm not all that good at estimating approximate times, hopefully someone else will come along and be able to do that.

I could be wrong, but I personally wouldn't squeeze the sponge into your tank as you might release the muck that gathers in there as well. I don't know what you have in your 10 gallon for filter, but if you had the sort with more than one sponge in it you could put one of the sponges into the filter of your larger tank to help with teh bacteria.

My only experience with these situations has been to keep up the water changes until the bacteria has the time to grow, that is the only way to keep the fish safe.

If your glofish are particularily sensitive to the changes in ammonia they may be best helped by moving over to your 10 gallon tank until things settle.

Oh and yes, by vaccume I mean syphon. I like to vaccume the bottom once per week thoroughly and in the middle of the week in a sort of half-hearted way. There is always a surprising amount of stuff that comes up... you can usually know you are doing a good job of it as you will see a cloud of yellowy/brown coming up the syphon and your bucket water will be quite a different color than the water you see in the tank.

 

[Essjay]

Do you think now that I have PRIME in there, that the ammonia is not harmful?

The detoxification effect only lasts around 24 hours. If you are doing daily water changes to reduce the ammonia, then you will top up the prime with every water change. But if you miss a day, the ammonia will become toxic again.