Cardinal Tetra Tank (help!)

[waterdrop]

Nice tank there starwars! pretty advance aquascape for a beginner there! nice wood.

OK, looks like you've got some nice java fern and moss. Are those amazon swords or what are those bigger ones behind the wood? I'm sure truck,Dave,Aaron etc will be along with some tips about the co2 & plant things...

As far as the cycle goes, please attempt to be very clear about 2 details: mention explicitly when you actually add ammonia and what ppm you brought it up to and secondly, when listing results, always mention number of hours since that ammonia add it was when you tested. We don't need to know time of day (that just puts the work on us!) just hours since add (the typical pattern for this is either 12hrs or 24hrs and 12 hr testing doesn't really need to be done until much later in the process although it doesn't really hurt of course.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[JediWiggles]

Sweet, tanks!

Only a quick post,

I have 2 snails in my tank, found them on the swords. I think there's a little bit of brown algae on the leaves, I need to know 2 things:

Are the snails friends or foe? There munching holes in my swords, Im not please but its the only living thing I've seen in there so Im like exstatic even though they might be bad!

and if so there so tiny that its hard for me to take a pic, although Im attempting. There on my swords, which are started to get brown algae on them (I think).

There's 1 of the 2, I hope theres only 2!

Testing

Ammonia test : 15 hours since it was dosed up to 4ppm (and since last round of tests)

results: 1 ppm

ph: 6.0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 40
Alk: 0
Hard: 150 (although I just installed Co2 system so I assume this is gonna start to drop, although I dont have a test for this)


Gonna wait till ammonia gets down to 0, hopefully by tonight (roughly 6-8 hours) I can ammonia dose again.




Im in a rush, I'll post more later.

May the force be with you.

Jedi Wiggles

 

[JediWiggles]

5 hours later my stats:

ammonia level is @ .5
nitrite is 0
nitrate is 40
ph is 6

Just dosed my tank with ammonia (4.5ml)

Im keeping a detailed log of my stats on a excel spread sheet. Hopefully to soon go up on the forum once I figure out how.

Tank is starting to develop hair-like algae on the front glass.

Co2 system is belting out a bubble each 3-4 seconds, is this like WAY to much? Cause my plants seem to love the stuff.

There are 3 levels u can set the hose to release bubbles @ (On a nutrafin Co2 system), the lowest is for up to 70 gallon, the top is recommended for up to 30(so say the instructions). Does this effect anything? and if so am I not helping by setting it up on the second level? (remember Im dealing with a 12 gallon-er)

Jedi Wiggles

 

[waterdrop]

Snails fall on both the friend and foe sides I guess. Some people buy some of the larger prettier snails to have in their tank. In functional terms, snails are not harmful and can even be helpful, cleaning up some of the debris on the bottom and some of the debris caught by algae, if not the algae on the inside glass.

However, in aesthetic terms, most aquarists attempting to create a pleasing aquascape prefer a minimum of snails and the small snail species are considered by them to be pests, something the get rid of on a constant basis. If that's your goal then you just have to work at it as a maintenance thing. You can crush them with your fingers and let your fish eat them as a snack, you can pull them out and toss them in your garden. Periodically you can sink a tea saucer with a weighted piece of lettuce overnight and often many snails will be feeding on it in the morning, ready for you to pull out (the saucer catches the ones that fall off the leaf. Don't use snail removal chemicals from the LFS, they just create other troubles.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[JediWiggles]

ok so I removed 2 snails and it seems that there where only 2. Haven't found any others. I put them in a jar with some rocks and java moss, if they live, ok, thats cool. If they dont then thats cool too.

Im treating them as foe.

Anyway Im on 12 hour testing now,

dosed my tank up to 4ppm of ammonia,

12 hours later, lets see what the tests show today.

Ammonia: 1
Ph: 6
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 40


It seems my ammonia consumption is stalling out a little cause of the low ph, should I do something about this? If so what should I do, I did a little research and I saw that 7-8.4 ph is what Im aiming for, but I dont have any way to adjust the ph besides a large water change. Is there something I can do to bring it back up a little?

Also what should I use to test hardness(considering the API master Kit doesn't come with a hardness measure)

Thanks, Cheers

 

[waterdrop]

Hi jedeye,

During fishless cycling (need to not have fish in there!) you can raise both KH and pH by adding common kitchen baking soda (not baking powder as this may have some unknowns.) Baking soda is Sodium Bicarbonate and it will act to counteract acids and "buffer" the water. At the end of the fishless cycle this "bicarb" will go out with the big water change and you should not continue to do it with fish.

The most conservative amount to do would be one teaspoon per 50L (13g) which would raise the KH by about 4 degrees without having much effect on pH. In your case I would probably start with 2 teaspoons per 50L/13g and move up to 3 teaspoons per.. if you are not getting enough rise after after a week or so with the 2t dosing.

You can just follow along with pH testing and that will be enough but if you are curious and really want to and the money is not a problem then you could elect to find a KH or GH/KH kit. TetraTest make a KH kit and API make a GH/KH kit and just about any kit would be fine as these are easy tests. What a KH test will do for you is give you more lead time to know when the buffer is exhausted and pH is about to drop, thus allowing you to better know when to add more baking soda.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Dave Spencer]

OK, starting from the top with the easier stuff…is the Java fern planted in the substrate? If it is, it will need to be attached to the wood by its rhizome. Super glue is the easiest method, but cotton will do. Attach it behind the wood, as it will get large and take over the front of the tank.

A twelve hour photoperiod is too long really, so think about reducing it to around ten hours at the most.

Time to get down to the nitty gritty:

Jedi, this a planted tank, so you shouldn`t be adding lights and ammonia to this tank. Algae could very well become a problem for you in a very short period of time. Either fishless cycle without plants (probably too late), or carry out the following blurb. The good news is that you may not have to fishless cycle this tank at all, if you don`t want to.

When starting a planted tank, the focus is on maximising plant growth, and minimising algae blooms. First off, increase your plant mass a little by buying some fast growing stems. Your LFS should be able to help you here. I earlier mentioned the link between:

light + ammonia = algae

What we have to do is break this link. For me, the first and crucial point is controlling the light early on. I am assuming you have stock lighting with the tank, so it shouldn`t present too many problems. Try running the lights for four hours for the first month, and then slowly increase an hour so over the next month or two. Keep a glass of water in a dark room which never sees light, and keep another glass with exactly the same type of water in direct sunlight. Something is going to grow in the lit glass, and it will be algae. Light is a trigger for algae.

Next, try to remove the second trigger, which is ammonia. In direct opposition to the fishless cycle, which has you adding ammonia, setting up a planted tank has you avidly removing it. The methods I use are:

Regular 50% water changes (daily on smaller, more manageable tanks). This will keep the ammonia down, and remove algae spores at the same time. Reduce the frequency after the first two or three weeks.

Use Zeolite in your filter. This will help to keep the ammonia levels down in the water column, making it unavailable to algae, but will still be available to your newly forming bacteria colony.

Healthy plants are very efficient at removing ammonia, so make sure you have enough healthy plants to process the ammonia. This leads us on to getting these plants healthy in the first place.

Over 50% of a plants structure is carbon. As you are aware, the best method of getting carbon to our plants is via CO2. Your DIY system should be fine on a small tank like this, but be aware that insufficient available carbon is, ultimately, the biggest cause of algae in planted tanks. You may want to try supplementing carbon with a liquid based additive such as Flourish Excel or EasyCarbo.

Next comes your plants requirements for macros, which are nitrogen, phosphorous and potassium. Ammonia is the preferred choice of nitrogen for your plants, so you can see that a healthy plant mass is going to process ammonia fairly efficiently.

Then comes the micros, which are essentially other elements required by your plants, but in far smaller quantities. Examples are iron, magnesium and calcium to name a few.

The good news is that you have addressed the carbon issue, and can address all of the rest with just one product, namely Tropica Plant Nutrition plus (TPN+). Dose this according to the bottle and your plants should be very happy and thrive.

I always add snails to my tanks, as I think they are a real benefit to planted tanks. They eat detritus and some alga, and are an indication of whether you are overfeeding your fish. If you have a population explosion, it is because there is plenty of uneaten fish food around. If you are feeding your fish the right amount, then their numbers are barely noticeable.


My first ever tank was a planted 120l about two and a half years ago. After a huge amount of reading, I deduced I could slowly add fish and shrimps to my tank after a week of healthy plant growth. This was done successfully with Cardinals, Otos and Amano shrimp. I managed this as a complete novice, without any losses. I am not suggesting you consider jumping in at the deep end like this, but it cuts out all the worry about pH crashes and KH levels that can be generated by constant testing of the water parameters. This method allows you in to the hobby quicker, and eliminates what I believe to be the unnecessary stress caused by constant testing.

Now we get on to the really interesting, and by far and away most difficult aspect of planted tanks….aquascaping. You are off to a good start, but the choice of moss is questionable IMO. It looks like Vesicularia dubyana (Java moss) to me. This is a very untidy looking moss, and I will never understand its popularity. It is hardly ever used amongst more enthusiastic plant heads. Do a little Googling and you will see far nicer looking varieties around.

I have a lot more to write, but have to go for now because I am at work. Have a look at the EI sticky on the planted forum, and the DIY CO2 recipe.

Hope some of this is useful as a possible alternative to the fishless cycle. Should you carry on with the fishless cycle, I am sure WD will ease the pain and see you through.

Dave.

 

[JediWiggles]

Thanks Dave, when your done work just start pointing me in the right direction. I assume you've read what I've done so far, I think 2 things should be apparent:

1. My end result is to have a large shoal of cardinals, maybe even start breeding them.

2. Im new to the concept of forum navigating (as in I'm pretty internet savvy just this is new)

Im enjoying the stats taking and the constant testing, I don't find it all that agonizing but you are indeed correct, I wanna get some frickin' fish in there like yesterday!

so with that in mind please my friend, apply any and all knowledge you have on the subject to this page and I will sponge every word.

I've read what you've said and I believe my plants are flourishing, an unknown fact I've neglected to mention is that I put about 5 flourish tabs in the substrate and the java fern is indeed under the gravel in a little nook. I will attach the fern to the wood (probably with fishing line)

the moss was the first thing I laid my eyes on and to be honest I just wanted something hardy that the tetra's would like. I like how riccia looks, maybe after another tie down of the moss, I can move the wood back a few inches and plant some riccia in the front. Growth rates for plants and mosses would be helpful.

Cheers, appreciate your time reading this over, I'll apply what u wrote.

Jedi Wiggles

 

[Dave Spencer]

Cardinals are my favourite fish for a planted tank, but I have always found them to be too shy. I have moved on to other shoaling types now.

Im enjoying the stats taking and the constant testing, I don't find it all that agonizing but you are indeed correct, I wanna get some frickin' fish in there like yesterday!

I did a small amount of testing on my first tank, if only to give me a rough idea of the rate at which ferts are used up. What testing you have done already may give you an idea of how the bacteria colony works and produces nitrates as the end product of processing ammonia. If you are enjoying it and learning, carry on, but remember that test kits are inaccurate at times, and sometimes bring unnecessary worry, IMO.

Get those fast growing stems in there, get the CO2 nice and stable, and think about dosing ferts in to the water rather than using root tabs. It is far easier in the long run. You will need a complete product that supplies all the nutrients, such as TPN+. What you want is a week of O2 bubbles on your plant leaves (called pearling) and some strong growth from the stems and swords. Your three other types of plants are slow growing, and may not show any significant growth from one day to the next. By the way, if you are going down this route, stop adding ammonia.

A healthy planted tank will have a smaller bacteria colony in the filter, but with plant roots oxygenating the substrate, there will be a significant colony coming in to play here, too. In non planted tanks, virtually all the bacterial processing of ammonia => nitrate takes place in the filter. By keeping the plants healthy and adding enough ferts, the water column should remain hospitable for the first introduction of a few fish after the first week or so. Do get that healthy growth going first, though. Remove any dying leaves off your plants. You may find that the Crypts and swords may lose a few at first, but this will just be the transition from them having been grown out of water initially, and are now changing to their submerged growth. With good CO2 from a pressurised system, it is possible to avoid this die off.

Keep up with the daily large water changes at the beginning. This very important in the battle against algae.

the moss was the first thing I laid my eyes on and to be honest I just wanted something hardy that the tetra's would like. I like how riccia looks, maybe after another tie down of the moss, I can move the wood back a few inches and plant some riccia in the front.

Riccia is a fantastic plant for pearling, but is extremely fast growing and high maintenance. I did a predominantely Riccia fluitans based scape that was hard work, but worth it IMO. The pearling looks almost like stars or crystal. I used netting to die it down on to rocks. This scape had about twenty Cardinals that would rarely come out. There is also Dwarf riccia, which remains a lot smaller, as you may have guessed.

This.....

....turned in to this in little over a month. It is full of fast growers, though.

If you look at how healthy plants process ammonia efficiently, the fact that they introduce a substrate colony of bacteria as soon as they are planted, and how we actively remove ammonia via products such as Zeolite and water changes for algae control, you can see how it is possible to introduce fish fairly early on, in a controlled manner. A properly run tank should never show any measurable levels of nitrite.

Although planted tanks are started with avoiding algae in mind, they can, by default, produce a healthy environment for fish very early on...provided you get it right.

Dave.

 

[JediWiggles]

Cardinals are my favourite fish for a planted tank, but I have always found them to be too shy. I have moved on to other shoaling types now.

what have you moved on too? Like freshwater wise, Im curious. Angel fish interest me too, I would like to dedicate this tank to cards but I'm a blank canvas, maybe a hardier fish would let me concentrate more on the aquascaping aspect.

I did a small amount of testing on my first tank, if only to give me a rough idea of the rate at which ferts are used up. What testing you have done already may give you an idea of how the bacteria colony works and produces nitrates as the end product of processing ammonia. If you are enjoying it and learning, carry on, but remember that test kits are inaccurate at times, and sometimes bring unnecessary worry, IMO.

I wanted to understand the process as you've said. It has given me a more scientific understanding of the relationships of chemistry throughout the tank.

Get those fast growing stems in there, get the CO2 nice and stable, and think about dosing ferts in to the water rather than using root tabs. It is far easier in the long run. You will need a complete product that supplies all the nutrients, such as TPN+. What you want is a week of O2 bubbles on your plant leaves (called pearling) and some strong growth from the stems and swords. Your three other types of plants are slow growing, and may not show any significant growth from one day to the next. By the way, if you are going down this route, stop adding ammonia.

What do u mean by fast growing stems, I assume a faster vertical growing plant but would like to hear of some examples. Maybe even something that grows up to the top and then topples over. Like a long grass or lilypad even. Just something that will block some light from dropping down.

Riccia is a fantastic plant for pearling, but is extremely fast growing and high maintenance. I did a predominantely Riccia fluitans based scape that was hard work, but worth it IMO. The pearling looks almost like stars or crystal. I used netting to die it down on to rocks. This scape had about twenty Cardinals that would rarely come out. There is also Dwarf riccia, which remains a lot smaller, as you may have guessed.

Your scaping is awesome! The pictures are great! I love the look of the dwarf riccia, I think Im gonna go get some ASAP.

If you look at how healthy plants process ammonia efficiently, the fact that they introduce a substrate colony of bacteria as soon as they are planted, and how we actively remove ammonia via products such as Zeolite and water changes for algae control, you can see how it is possible to introduce fish fairly early on, in a controlled manner. A properly run tank should never show any measurable levels of nitrite.

Question: Should I wait till the tabs expire before adding plant food?? There said to last a month.

I also have a plant food that was supplied with the nutrafin Co2 system called "plant gro". It consists of a 0.15 - 0 - 0 solution. I think you can look up the exact stats on the nutrafin website. Anyway I have this at my disposal. Would this properly sustain my plants?


So a fast growing stem, some dwarf riccia(I see how u secured it, like a hair net or something?) What about the plant food. I'll look for some TPN+ aswell.

Cheers Dave

Jedi

 

[Dave Spencer]

what have you moved on too? Like freshwater wise, Im curious. Angel fish interest me too, I would like to dedicate this tank to cards but I'm a blank canvas, maybe a hardier fish would let me concentrate more on the aquascaping aspect.

I tend to go for fish that compliment the scape, so it tends to be large shoals of small fish such as Ember tetras or Green neons. Nothing spectacular really.

What do u mean by fast growing stems, I assume a faster vertical growing plant but would like to hear of some examples.

Look for fast growing examples such as Rotala sp, Hygrophila polysperma, Micranthemum umbrosum (the stem plant in the tank pic I posted). Here is a link to a sticky in the planted section of this forum. Ignore all the stuff about plants requiring high light, or being "heavy root feeders", it is a bit outdated.

http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=22604

Maybe even something that grows up to the top and then topples over. Like a long grass or lilypad even. Just something that will block some light from dropping down.

You could try for one of the many Vallisneria sp, or if you want to be a tad more sophisticated, Cyperus helferi or Cryptocoryne balansae. I don`t know a great deal about lily type plants as I am not a big fan.

Question: Should I wait till the tabs expire before adding plant food?? There said to last a month.

I don`t see any problem with adding ferts to the water column straight away. It will make the tabs last a little longer, that is all. I suspect the Plant Gro you have only supplies the micro nutrients, not the nitrogen, phosphorous and potassium macros that are also needed. TPN+ will cover all nutrient requirements without the headache of remembering what your plants need.

Dave.

P.S. Don`t know why the quotes aren`t working correctly.

 

[JediWiggles]

Sweet Dave,

I just got back from the Blue Jays game, and just read what you posted.

I'll update again tomorrow evening when I've hit up the store, thanks for the plants link.

Im exploiting it right now

Cheers,

ps. Can u believe they charge 9 dollars canadian for a beer @ the jays game? U practically have to be drinking to watch that stuff!?!

My water stats:

After 12 hour dose.

Ammonia: 0
Ph: 6.4
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 40

Gonna aquascape a bit and do a major water change tomorrow.

 

[waterdrop]

This is a fun thread to read. It may be that you are working to an even more enhanced and condensed set of guidelines for beginners who want to get a reasonably high-tech planted tank up and going, Dave. I sometimes think we should make a greater effort in the "New to the Hobby" forum to fork people off to different start-up avenues. Clearly, planted vs. very lightly planted beginner community are different avenues and perhaps those completely unplanted cichlid tanks with big stones are even a different one? Its very interesting hearing the startup things you have come up with to get through to the mature stage with the least possible algae problems.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[vinylman]

Jedi, good to hear from someone prepared to step back and not just dive in at the start only to regret it later. As no one has pointed it out yet, Cardinals aren't a great choice for a newly-cycled tank; they really need a tank that's cycled AND matured. I'd personally give it a good four months before introducing them. Try and look for something that will do better at first, then introduce the Cardinals when the tank is ready. May seem an awfully long wait, but it will be worth it. Good on you for taking all the advice in the spirit it's intended, too.

 

[Dave Spencer]

As no one has pointed it out yet, Cardinals aren't a great choice for a newly-cycled tank; they really need a tank that's cycled AND matured. I'd personally give it a good four months before introducing them. Try and look for something that will do better at first, then introduce the Cardinals when the tank is ready.

Cardinals are the very first fish I ever introduced in to my tanks, and that was a week after planting. I had done a ton of research before, of course, ensuring healthy plant growth, but I believe this to be a TFF myth. One of far too many.

I often read on this forum how you can`t add Otos or Amano shrimp early on, either. Once again, in my own experiences, this simply isn`t true. it is common practice to add these two to an immature planted tank showing early signs of diatoms and green fuzz on leaves.

I gaurantee you Jedi, everything I advise or suggest to you on this thread will be from personal experience.

One thing I will always encourage people to do is find things out for themeselves through observation and research. I added Cardinals knowing they would be OK. I started with around five, added shrimp and Otos the following week, and then started filling up with Cardinals. I never suffered a single loss (although I have found now that two years down the line, I can`t keep shrimp in any of my tanks).

Dave.