Cardinal Tetra Tank (help!)

[JediWiggles]

Lets get right into it, I have many questions cropping up and I only started getting serious about this tank a few days ago. I bought an Eclipse 12 Gallon that is intended to house a skool of tetras (Cardinals). The tank was established 2 days ago, where as I added: 12 Gallons of dechlorinated tap water, 4 Ice rocks, 2 5lb bags of Black Este's gravel.

Day 2 begins by me testing the water, this is what I got (Used Jungle Labs 6 in 1 test strips):

Ph: 7.8 - 8.4
Alkalinity: 120 (ppm(KH))
Chlorine: 0 (ppm(mg/L))
Hardness: 150-300 (ppm(GH))
Nitrite: 0 (ppm(mg/L))
Nitrate: 0 (ppm (mg/L))

Temp: 77.4 F

Now after I tested this I went to the LFS and asked a 26 year vet to enlighten me about Cardinal Tetra tank "pre-setup" and I was told that the water hardness had to come down. Doing a little research, I found that this was indeed accurate and that they enjoy a soft acidic setup so it was suggested that I grab a piece of bogwood and some plant life. Also to use a "blackwater extract" (Tetra). Having 3 pages of research infront of me about cards this seemed to check out so I invested. The LFS employee showed me some typical plant life associated with "Amazon-like" conditions. I settled on 4 species: Java Fern, swords, bronze wendth, and lutea.

I took all this home, soaked the bogwood in hot water for 2 hours. Set all the plants throughout my tank, threw in the bogwood and then added the "blackwater Extract". Im also trying to keep regular hours with my light. Roughly 12 hours a day.

Day 3 water test reveils:


Ph: 7.2
Alkalinity: 40
Chlorine: 0
Hardness: 150
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0

Temp : 79.5 F

Currently its mid day and the light has been on awhile. My tank has started to exhibit "cloudy-ness". It resembles the color of the Blackwater Ex. that I put in. And A "Frothing" has started to occur @ the top. I figure it could be 1 of 2 things. 1) The Extract is working its mojo or 2) the bogwood is still got some "brown-ness" left in it. What "exactly" is the cause of this and should I do anything about it? Especially before I add fish. Also my plants have started to show signs of "browning" on the leaf tips. What does this indicate? As I haven't put anything in to help my plants grow should I be considering something? Was it silly of me to just grab plants, and throw them in without any type of substrate (ie. loam, peat, etc) within the gravel? Should I re-scape my setup before I add fish? I was told that fish could go in as soon as 4-5 days from now and that I should start with a small number of black neons.
I've looked all over and can't find any good resources for Cardinal Tetra tank testimonials. I'm sure there are some, and would appreciate any input. I plan to take a picture and update this post for anyone that wants to follow in my footsteps. Thanks to all that respond. More questions to come.

 

[waterdrop]

Hello Jedi and Welcome to TFF!

How delightful to get near the bottom of your post and find that my worry thoughout the post (that you already had the cardinal tetras in there!) was unfounded and it seems you in fact do NOT have fish in there yet. Am I correct? If that's the case then we may have "caught" you in our safety net prior to you making your biggest mistake, ha!

Also unusual and nice for us to get a newcomer who has obviously tried so hard to do his homework prior to taking actions, very non-par and you are to be congratulated!

If you're open to it, as a beginner, I believe you'll find, as in many somewhat complicated endeavors, that the real information is often quite surprisingly different than what one thinks before knowing it. Fishkeeping is a hobby like that. The core knowledge is quite arcane, when viewed by the beginner. You'll find that a fair amount of your initial research has turned up mis-information and that perhaps the most important things to be focusing on have been missed. But still, others are ok, so let's get started:

The information about when you can add fish, particularly with regard to cardinals, is incorrect. Perhaps the most central set of learning for beginners is about a thing called the "Nitrogen Cycle" and how to apply it to the preparation of a "biofilter," one of the 3 functions of an aquarium filter. The filter hardware you buy from the shop is like a computer with no software, not even an operating system. It takes between 3 and 6 weeks on average, sometimes even 2 months, before the filter is ready to support fish. On top of that, there are a few species that need a tank to "mature" (a term we use because we don't truthfully know why(!)) for even more time after the filter is ready. Cardinal/Neon tetras are among the worst for this - we usually recommend not introducing them until 6 months (!) down the road.

Don't be discouraged though, because all this new stuff to learn is quite fascinating in itself and anyone with your curiosity will enjoy it. The first thing you need to be aware of is to be reading as much as possible. Our "pinned" articles at the top of the forum contain lots of key information, so get started on those. You'll want to read about the nitrogen cycle, about fishless cycling (this is a big deal) and about good tank startup techniques. Be sure to read other theads here in the beginners group and interact and ask questions, particularly here in your own thread. Take a look around the forums and note that you can do searches on things, as most info has been repeated over the years.

One of your first major problems is your paper-strip-based tests. Unfortunately, those are worse than useless, they are misleading. You need to be looking for a good liquid-reagent based test kit. Many of us like and use the API Freshwater Master Test Kit. API makes strips also, but those are just as bad as anyone else's strips. The kit contains tests for ammonia, nitrite(NO2), pH and nitrate(NO3), the main things you'll need to be learning about as a beginner.

Try to describe your filter and the filter media (the materials, sponges, ceramics, floss, etc.) to the members so we can get an idea if you need to make changes there before you get started. Learning about the physical filter should be done quickly so you can set it up and get started with the fishless cycling process.

You sound like you're off to a good start with your wood. You may need to spend more time soaking it in a bucket with as many additions of boiling water as you can, but its about aesthetics. The brown/black water will not be bad for either the new bacteria you'll be trying to grow, nor for the eventual fish. The wood and plants will indeed be helpful for the cardinals. As a surprise, your pH (7.8-8.4 if your liquid kit confirms it) will be excellent for the "bacterial growing soup" you'll need to learn how to cook up. Note that your going to want your heater to work at 84F/29C for that soup. You'll read in the articles about the task of finding "household ammonia" to use for the bacterial food.

Hope all this doesn't turn you off. I have tetras like you are hoping for and they've been very successful, vibrant and colorful, moving about in a proud shoal. I'll try to stop in and check on your thread whenever I can and meantime, lots of other members probably will too.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[JediWiggles]

Your right! No fish as of yet! I should clarify, I've had fish in the past, some goldfish in a 10 gal startup Aquarium. Also I've had a 20 gallon with gourami's(sp) and a 6 inch pluco So I've been around the perverbal "block."

Thank you for commending my research skills, unfortunately I have absorbed a lot of information and your quite right. I've become lost trying to make sense of it all. As an amateur in the age of the internet I guess it easy to bite off more than you can chew.

So I guess my next question is one my librarian always asked, "is the information reliable?"

I'm still as of yet not discouraged , but I've only read half of your post thus far!

I will start to read the articles that are "pinned", its awesome finally having a reliable source!

Should I keep using the test strips or will that be a waste of time? From what your saying I figure I might aswell use them till there gone but ultimately get my hands on API Freshwater Master Test Kit. That I can do.

My tank has been cycling for 3 days completely now. Its an Eclipse 12 gallon tank so the filter is a slope setup. Pumped up one side, blue sponge in the middle and a Bio-wheel @ the end before it re-enters the tank.

The sponge is dirty so Im assuming bacteria is forming! (woohoo!)

I guess my questions for this post are:


Do I continue letting my tank go or do I completely rehaul it and start over? My main concern with that is the plants.

I need a posting about plant transfers because there beauty's and I dont wanna lose'em.

Im turning the tank temp up to 84F now. Im going to start reading about the nitrogen cycle and fishless cycling.

My water is "foaming" what does this mean and what can I do about it?

I have a Tetra Whisper 20 Air pump with a 105mm tube diffuser, should I throw it into my tank during this process? I found mixed opinions about airation(sp?).

Also I bought a Co2 system called the "Natural Plant System". Its by Nutrafin. I've yet to set it up although I know my plants will benefit from it. The reason is because I would like to know if there's a better system out there? and if so I can take it back tomorrow and get a refund. I figure most do the same thing.

Waterdrop, You've done exactly the opposite. Its nice to finally have a little direction as I've been taken for a ride from every other corner I turn. Cough *LFS* Cough.

Ps. Im Canadian, and a Toronto-ian so anyone with information on obtaining aquarium materials besides the local LFS or Big Al's. Im all ears. Big Al's is where I go right now.

Cheers

 

[waterdrop]

Hi Jedi,

I love Toronto! Great city - I particularly enjoy staying in that wonderful old hotel across from the train station downtown and then taking walks all over the city!

Hey, I'm not going to have time to answer much this time as I'm in a rush but wanted to touch base. ...No, you need to be getting your new test kit as soon as possible (Big Al's is great by the way, I've used them and liked the service) and then just use your strips for "curiosity" measurements of say GH, KH and chlorine, nothing immediately important...

Is TFF reliable? I kept quietly asking myself that same question during the long weeks of my fishless cycle and getting all this new advice. In the end I was -completely- satisfied that this is "for real!" I clearly remembered various problems I'd had with fish and fish tanks years before and now my fish are constantly behaving just like they did only in their best moments back then. My tank is clear and wonderful.. so many of the topics the members focus on turn out to be "right on the money" so to speak. It's really a powerful thing, getting a bunch of serious hobbyists together.

Don't worry about that foam, its unimportant. OK, gotta leave plant comments to later but maybe other members will come along...

~~waterdrop~~

 

[JediWiggles]

The York! Yes! And Big Al's is ok, when its not a zoo.

Quick update:

Day 4 and the whole top is lined with bubbly foam. Im no longer conerned about it although its tough to not react with no fish in the tank.

Planning on getting rid of the swords and the shorter crap I planted in the front. Also this board will have pictures soon. Im just so new to foruming that I got caught up in the typing part.

Anyway this is what I got for a reading on my strips, i get a better testing kit tomorrow.

The nitrate/nitrites are 0
The ph is 7.8 - 8.4

and I raised the temp to around 82f so bacteria will feast! On what I dunno, cause I've still yet to feed them plant foods. Hoping they just take with no quams.

Thats all for now, I hate no having any fish yet........Its hard keeping your eye on the prize, yet I will persaver!

Prolly gonna get some ammonia too, cheers.

 

[waterdrop]

There's not much point to any of this until you find the ammonia. Nothing really starts (no bacteria) until you begin dosing the tank to 5ppm per our fishless cycling Add&Wait method. Get your good testing kit tomorrow, learn on it by posting up your tap and tank results, but of most importance you need to be searching the mop&brooms sections of grocery/hardware/bigbox stores to find pure household ammonia that doesn't foam when shaken! This fishless cycle may take as long as 2 months, so you want to get started!

~~waterdrop~~

 

[JediWiggles]

There's not much point to any of this until you find the ammonia. Nothing really starts (no bacteria) until you begin dosing the tank to 5ppm per our fishless cycling Add&Wait method. Get your good testing kit tomorrow, learn on it by posting up your tap and tank results, but of most importance you need to be searching the mop&brooms sections of grocery/hardware/bigbox stores to find pure household ammonia that doesn't foam when shaken! This fishless cycle may take as long as 2 months, so you want to get started!

~~waterdrop~~

Just hit up Walmart, grabbed a jug of Goldex Ammonia (dunno if this is ok, but it doesnt foam when shaken and has no fragrances or phosphates)

Grabbed a pack of API Ammonia Nh3/Nh4+ test kit (drops this time ) Just about to test my tank water and my tap water. I'll post an update in an hour or 2.

Jedi

 

[waterdrop]

Now you're getting somewhere! I believe I remember another member mentioning that branded name from walmart and that it was ok, so that's another positive for it.

You'll need to do some tests to figure out how much ammonia it takes to make 1ppm. What I always did was use a 2-gallon bucket I had that had quantity markings for the 2g inside it. You can use an "ammonia calculator" to guess what a rough amount might be and then start lower than that and keep adding little bits of ammonia and re-testing and writing it all down so you can get an amount. This may take a fair amount of trial and error but eventually you'll have a number of milliliters of your particular ammonia that will raise your water to 1ppm and you can multiply that for your estimated tank water volume and, say, 4ppm and dose the tank and test, etc.

The issue is that the actual percentage of ammonia in the aqueous solution you've bought will often not be the same as the percentage marked on the bottle if its marked at all. If its not marked you can guess that its, say, 6%, and put that into the ammonia calculator for your first guess. The second issue is that its hard to guess your tank water volume with the gravel and hardscape in there, so you want to dose the tank low and then come up to the 5ppm reading you want. You definately do not want it close to 8ppm as that will encourage a different species of bacteria and create a setback to your cycle.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[JediWiggles]

April10.2009 - 2:04am Tank update

- tested 2 1 gallon buckets of regular tap water, both were tested and resulted in:

Alk: 120
Chlorine: 0
Hardness: 300
Nitrate: 0
Nitrite: 0
Ammonia: 0
PH: 7.8

with a medicine dropper that measured up to 3mL @ .5mL intervals: Result

I added a 1mL or 8 drops of 5% pure ammonia (Goldex) in bucket # 1 4ppm

I added a .5mL or 4 drops of 5% pure ammonia (Goldex) in bucket # 2 2ppm

Since I have bogwood and gravel in I figure 4ppm is a good goal, just in case.



So later today I will be going to Big Al's and grabbing some plant pellets or something to feed my plants (Cause they be Hungry!) and then Im gonna move around the hardscape. Add ammonia and let'r Rip! To check my results I used the ammonia calculator, here are the numbers.

Volume : Length = 20 inches, Width = 10 inches, Height = 14 inches

Total Area = 2800 inches squared

Temperature: 82.8f

Volume 12 US Gallons

Weight 101 Pounds

hardness 75 GH

Solution Required : 3.63mL (Pretty close!)

I shall execute my plan tomorrow. End communication

 

[waterdrop]

OK, you're doing great there, 4ppm should be fine, its pretty hard to judge that trace over the 4ppm mark that means 5ppm when looking at the green shades in the API test tube, so not much difference anyway.

What are the media types in your filter again? That's the only other thing perhaps to check out as you're getting underway. We sometimes get people with new filters that have substances that totally remove ammonia (which is not good, because then the bacteria never develop) or that have carbon (aka activated charcoal) taking up space (carbon is only good for 3 days!)

~~waterdrop~~

 

[JediWiggles]

OK, you're doing great there, 4ppm should be fine, its pretty hard to judge that trace over the 4ppm mark that means 5ppm when looking at the green shades in the API test tube, so not much difference anyway.

What are the media types in your filter again? That's the only other thing perhaps to check out as you're getting underway. We sometimes get people with new filters that have substances that totally remove ammonia (which is not good, because then the bacteria never develop) or that have carbon (aka activated charcoal) taking up space (carbon is only good for 3 days!)

~~waterdrop~~

I have a sponge with a charcoal insert. (Like those blue sponges) I found this.

"The Eclipse Filter Cartridge supplies both mechanical and chemical filtration. For mechanical filtration, there's a polyfiber filter pad to trap dirt and debris like uneaten food and fish waste. For chemical filtration, each cartridge is packed with Black Diamond Premium Activated Carbon. Chemical Filtration uses activated carbon to adsorb dissolved pollutants which can cause discoloration and odor."

I've been running it for more than 5 days now, does this mean the charcoal is no longer active?

I have yet to start adding ammonia, Im gonna wait till I get a response. The polyfiber is quite brown.

Do I wanna get a charcoal-less filter then?

 

[waterdrop]

ok Jedi (..always feels like I'm in a StarWars movie )

I love reading those sales blurbs about a cartridge insert, lol, the part they conveniently neglect to mention is that activated charcoal (aka carbon) is "used up" in 2 days and ready to be removed on the third day and dumped in the trash. Can you imagine actually doing that on and on? Carbon is a wonderful "optional chemical media" (it has some mechanical and biomedia functionality too but is not at all optimal for either of those compared to other types of media) that we all like to keep "on our shelf" for occasional special use. You use it when removing medicines, removing yellow tannins from wood or removing the rare organic smell that sometimes happens without clear origin.

The reason carbon is not a great biomedia is because it gradually crumbles and actually gradually goes out the drain with the water changes, carrying some of your bacteria with it. In contrast, bacteria on sponges lasts nearly forever until the sponge physically shreds, or bacteria on ceramics really does last more or less until you quit the hobby I guess. (potenial side topic there, I suppose, whether long-term biomedia should ever be small-percentage refreshed... (sorry Jedi, didn't mean to get off topic!))

Anyway, back to your main problem! It might depend on your options? What are your options with your filter? Was there any literature indicating other cartridge choices? Were there other choices in the shop? Can you contact the manufacturer and find out? ALSO, I may not be understanding the full picture. Perhaps there is a substantial separate sponge that can serve as the primary biomedia repository and the carbon is secondary.

Note that I'm not necessarily the ideal member to help you with this as I'm not familiar with your filter (never really had a filter that uses cartridges.) If you state the manuf./model, there might be somebody here familiar.

By the way, the stuff I was most worried about was a substance called "Zeolite" which is sometimes initially in small filters and often looks like small white chips, either in a cartridge or in a bag. It doesn't sound like we have that problem from what you've mentioned, right?

~~waterdrop~~

 

[JediWiggles]

No Zeolite here, the cartridges that I have are a sponge rapped around a charcoal insert in the middle. I know by now its gotta be teaming with bacteria but if the charcoal is already done, I feel a bit duped! 3 days?!?! It hurts but Im gonna do some research and look into other options.

I'll post about it later in the day. I did some aquascaping yesterday and am finally happy with the way my tank looks (Im glad I didnt take any early pictures!)

The pic's are taken, they'll give a better picture of my situation. I'll post them with the research. I checked my water chemistry again a few minutes ago. This is where Im at. (Keep in mind, I added some ammonia directly after. 2.5mL) The calculator for ammonia said to add 3.6mL but since I have some items like rocks and a wood piece in there I went for a more minimal dose! (This is also the first addition of ammonia I've made since starting the tank 7 days ago)

Question : When adding ammonia, and u wanna check the ppm after how long should u give the ammonia to circulate around the tank before getting a fairly accurate reading?

Im gonna test the water again now, just so I can post some results and then test again when I post the pics later.

if it makes ya feel bettter, I can call u Padawan although, it seems we have our names backwards!

Cheers. (Watching the golf (Masters) so I'll post again some time tonight.)

Go Cabrera!

 

[waterdrop]

Question : When adding ammonia, and u wanna check the ppm after how long should u give the ammonia to circulate around the tank before getting a fairly accurate reading?

I always forget what people think is best for this... I'd probably say 20 min to a half hour to give it a good mix.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[JediWiggles]

Sorry for the stall, a lot has been happening. First of all, PICTURES!!! Finally, I just got a new camera. so Here ya go.

This is my first shot, April 12th. Figuring out the best way of taking shots of the tank.

My Filter top view and bio wheel

My tank currently as of today.

My water is the following:

Temp : 82.6
Alk: 0
Clr: 0
Ph: 6
Hard: 150
Nitrate: 40
Nitrite: .5
Ammonia: 2

Plants are starting to take, Im happy with whats happening. Added a Nutrafin CO2 system today, bubbles are coming out really fast.

I need some information about: How to measure Co2, how I should control the output of the canister. Everything is coming along nicely. Im starting to get excited about adding fish....finally! Although I relize I gotta finish off the fishless cycling still.

Im getting impatient!

If anyone has any good video's of large Cardinal Tetra shoals, I'd like the link. Cheers.