Can All My Fish Survive In Brackish Waters?

[pica_nuttalli]

eh, the efficacy of using salt for disease control is a subject of some debate since it's antimicrobal properties are often off-set by the stress induced by the extra osmoregulation demands... i personally wouldn't rely on salt to prevent disease as much as i would proper water conditions.

setting up the 45g as a brackish tank sounds like a great idea for your dragon goby. since none of your fish "need" feeders anyways, swapping over really shouldn't be an issue. have you looked into any of nmonks other posts on violet gobies? a lot of LFS have no clue about how to keep these fish, so i'm not sure how much misinformation you may have already recieved. for starters, you ought to learn what a healthy one looks like! my best description is a moldy raw sausage, but i'm sure others can do better

 

[nmonks]

Not a complete surprise... I've seen some incredibly mean angelfish. But on the average, jewels are pretty mean when they get territorial, so keeping them with angels isn't a text-book combination.

cheers,

Neale

Well I have had 1 angle fish with my jewel cichlid for about 4 years and both left each other alone. The jewel cichliud I ahve had for about 6-7 years.

 

[Inchworm]

I was called to look at this thread for another reason, but while I'm here I want to say a few things about corydoras.

First, they should not be kept in salted water for any extended period of time, for the reason nmonks explained. However, salt does not burn them and can be used for certain medicinal purposes if its use is limited to short periods. I use a small amount when I buy them from someone who lives at a distance and the fish arrive in water with a different pH than mine. It seems to help ease their adjustment to it.

It can also be used in a concentrated solution for short (10 to 20 minute) baths if a cory has a severe case of bacterial infection that does not respond to regular medication. It's a last resort sort of thing that sometimes works.

Keeping salt in the cory's water for long periods of time is too hard on their systems, since they cannot eliminate it properly, and while you probably won't see immediate effects, it will result in their having a shortened lifespan.

Second, it's not a good idea to keep corys in the same tank with cichlids who might behave aggressively. This is because the stress can weaken the cory's immune systems and make them more likely to get bacterial infections.

I also know of a case where the cichlid tried to swallow a young cory head first and the cory threw out its pointy ventral fins and punctured both sides of the cichlid's mouth. The owner found them both dead. Since I was the person who bred and raised the cory, needless to say, I didn't find the story amusing.

 

[jgray152]

Yah my jewel fish has never been aggrasive for no reason. Some of my fish like ot push another one, not really attack them, this will sometimes turn him on and he will chase them to the other side of the tank but thats it.

Its weird, maybe im just not seeing it or maybe im just one of those lucky fish keepers but my corys have been fine since day one with the cichlids. One of them I think is about 5 years old? Only has spent I believe 3 ytears with cichlids. The other 3 are about 1-2 years with the cichlids. They never get bothered by them atleast when I feed them . If im gone for a few days and they don't get fed, I may come back and see frayed fins which heal up in a few days.

since none of your fish "need" feeders anyways

What else does a needle fish eat? He seems to only eat feeder fish. Which is the main reason why I buy them. My Cichlids usually get ahold of them too. The needle fish is much faster then any of my cichlids though so he usually gets them first.

have you looked into any of nmonks other posts on violet gobies?

No I havn't. This was my first thread. I will search through though.

a lot of LFS have no clue about how to keep these fish, so i'm not sure how much misinformation you may have already recieved.

Let me reword some parts

a lot of LFS have no clue about how to keep many types of fish, so i'm not sure how much misinformation you may have already recieved.

I receive alot of misinformation and most of the time pick up on it and turn my head.


I went into one fish store with a bunch of 10-15 gallon tanks. All with about 4-10 fish in them. My mouth dropped when I saw the filters they were using. This is a picture of the ONLY TYPE of filter they were using in ALL the tanks.

I asked the guy if that was the filter system they were using.
He said, "yes, bacterial filtration is the only filtration you need.
I said, "doesn't look like much bacterial filtration to me."
He says, "Well these tanks are very old so bacteria grows on the gravel and plants."

I looked at my gf who wanted corys for her 10 gallon and shook my head and walked away. Do they not clean their gravel? Do the fish not stir up the gravel?


btw, does anyone have trouble posting long posts such as this one? I have to make multiple post to put all my information in one.

 

[jgray152]

Another story to tell from the LFS is a few days ago I went to buy some feeders for my needle fish. I told the guy that my cichlids eat them too if they can grab them before the needle fish does. He says that cichlids don't have the right enzimes to digest feeder fish and the get get whats called, "bloated cichlid disease".

I thought he was joking around.

Isn't it the way the food chain works in the real world? Smaller fish get eatin by the bigger fish?

 

[pica_nuttalli]

d'oh! forgot about the needle fish... i'm just not used to the idea of those being kept in a community

lucky for you, most livebearers like some brackish in their waters and are also the recommended fish for feeders.


--EDIT--
actually, that guy almost had a point. a lot (at least 50%) of Malawi cichlids are primarily herbivorous in the wild and shouldn't be fed too much protein in the home aquaria. most of these species will in fact develop a disease called "Malawi Bloat" if they are fed too much food containing animal-protein. from what i recall reading, "Malawi Bloat" is almost invariably fatal.

 

[jgray152]

I guess I would have to feed them about 20-30 feeders a day for that 2 happen I only put in about 4-10 feeders in the tank a day and they get split up between everyone. I feed them flakes too since some don't eat the feeders.

 

[nmonks]

Please read this thread about needlefish and then this pinned topic about live feeder fish.

In the wild needlefish do not eat fishes, they feed primarily on crustaceans of various kinds (crabs, shrimps, and the like). So the ideal diet for them is things like crickets, woodlice, river shrimps, and so on. They absolutely can be weaned onto dead food, and if you do this, life becomes much easier because you can simply use stuff from the freezer.

The feeder fish debate can be argued both ways, but essentially, you only NEED to do it for species that will not eat anything else, and in that case, you should be raising your own feeders that you can "fatten up" on nutritious greens and vitamin-rich flake. Goldfish and rosy-red minnows are absolutely the worst possible food for most fish because they contain too much fat and an enzyme called thiaminase that breaks down one of the B vitamins.

Cheers,

Neale

What else does a needle fish eat? He seems to only eat feeder fish. Which is the main reason why I buy them. My Cichlids usually get ahold of them too. The needle fish is much faster then any of my cichlids though so he usually gets them first.

 

[jgray152]

you should be raising your own feeders that you can "fatten up" on nutritious greens and vitamin-rich flake.

Im very interested in this. I havn't tried to hard to feed him anything else. He went without feeders for about 1 week and in this time frame I was adding flakes, shrimp pellets and frozen blood worms for the other fish and to see if he would eat any of it. He didn't eat at all. He was about 4.5" when I got him so maybe he was being fed minows or something similar his whole life and only know that type of food? I know if I got shrimp or somthing he would eat them if he had the chance. My cichlids would get to them first since they are closer to the ground.

I will look into rasing my own but untill then I will also see if I can find a different healthy diet for him that will also be easier on me.

Thanks for the info.

 

[CFC]

They wont eat flake pellets or bloodworms but they should take small frozen fish such as silver sides, whitebait and lance fish if you offer them using tongs to hold them near the surface.

 

[jgray152]

I found out my old tank was a 30 gallon not a 45. I though it looked strange when i put the 55 gallon and the so called 45 side by side. I never measured it since I was always told it was a 45 so it never crossed my mind. Now i know. O well.

 

[Aleksander]

Whether a fish has scales or not is immaterial to its tolerance of salty water. Moray eels and sharks do not have scales, yet both live in the sea. Tetras and gouramis have scales, but are intolerant of brackish water. Catfish do not have scales, but there are at least two families of catfish that live in the sea (Ariidae and Plotosidae) and several families that have members that inhabit brackish water or the sea periodically (Aspredinidae and Bagridae, to name but two). There are even a few plecs that are natural inhabitants of slightly brackish water.

Salt-tolerance is to do with osmoregulation, specifically how the gills and kidneys are set up to conserve water and remove unwanted salt from the body. Some freshwater fish "recently" evolved from marine ancestors and still have some of the hardware in place for doing this. Livebearers and killifish, for example, often have a very high tolerance of salt. But most freshwater fish have been in freshwater habitats for tens if not hundreds of millions of years, and have little to no tolerance of salt because they have long since lost the hardware for dealing with salty water.

Anyway, on your list, the only fish with brackish water tolerance are the jewel cichlid, the ropefish, the and the needlefish (if Xenentodon cancila). All three of these naturally occur in slightly brackish water, albeit not commonly. If your needlefish is one of the gar-like characins (check for an adipose fin between the dorsal and the tail fin) then it is intolerant of salt. By "parrot cichlids" you mean those ghastly hybrid things, right? Rather than Hoplarchus psittacus? If so, then being a hybrid it's impossible to know its tolerance of salt, but some of the Central American cichlids are quite salt tolerant. A few can even live and breed in sea water.

Rift Valley lake cichlids are intolerant of salt as a general rule (perhaps because they are specialised for certain water conditions). None of your catfish is salt-tolerant. Angelfish certainly do not like salt, being adapted to soft and acidic water.

So, no, you can't "just add salt" to this collection of fish, and sadly the goby should be taken back. Otherwise, get anoher aquarium, and keep some brackish water fish!

By the way, your collection of fish is a bit heterogenous. I for one would worry about mixing angelfish with jewel cichlids, and needlefish are a bit skittish, and hardly ideal animals for a tank containing aggressive cichlids.

Cheers,

Neale

Sharks do have scales. They are extremely tiny and are directional. Hence why when you rub a shark's skin backwards, it feels like sandpaper.

 

[nmonks]

Yes, you're right in a way, but it does depend on how you define "scales". Sharks have structures called dermal denticles, which have the same developmental origins as our teeth. Indeed, it is believed that teeth evolved from dermal denticles in some way. They are made from enamel on the outside and have a pulp with a blood supply on the inside.

Bony fish have scales with little or no enamel, and instead is made from layers of bone and protein. Bony fish scales do not have a connection to the blood supply, either. They grow out of the skin a bit like our hair or fingernails. Some families fish have lost their scales over the course of evolution.

It should be mentioned that lungfish have scales somewhere between the two, and lampreys and hagfish (both of which live in the sea for all or part of their lives) have no scales of any kind whatsoever. Chimeras, which are related to sharks, have almost no scales at all, and they all live in the sea.

Thus, scales have little to do with osmoregulation. There are lots of scaleless fish living in the sea: catfish, blennies, and eels, for example.

Cheers,

Neale

Sharks do have scales. They are extremely tiny and are directional. Hence why when you rub a shark's skin backwards, it feels like sandpaper.

 

[Adam86]

You absolutely CAN NOT put all those fish in brackish. Just take the goby back. Corries especially can't tolerate any salt.

I kept Corys in salt for over 3 years. They finally died of old age. Now the salt I use is salt without iodide in it.

 

[pica_nuttalli]

You absolutely CAN NOT put all those fish in brackish. Just take the goby back. Corries especially can't tolerate any salt.

I kept Corys in salt for over 3 years. They finally died of old age. Now the salt I use is salt without iodide in it.

cories should have lifespans of 10-15 years. if yours died of old age, then its because the aging process was accelerated by the salt exposure.

i suggest that you read nmonks' post on which fish are salt-tolerant and why.