Calling All Experts!

[bmiranda]

OK everyone, I'm starting to get fed up with my unexplained fish deaths. I'm going to provide as much info as I can, and would love some insight as to why..

55 gal freshwater
mediumly planted (plants grow great)
temp 79
Ammonia, nitrite 0
nitrate less than 40 ppm
tested for chlorine...0
ph 6.4
48 watts floresent
3 blue LEDs
1 150W submersible heater
1 external air pump with air wand below gravel
1 external hang on filter (changed filter every 3-4 months, carbon every 8-12, never touch the ceramic)


I have in the tank
2 small clown loaches (well over a year old)
2 cory cats (well over a year old)
15 ish neon and rummy nose tetras
5 ish phantom tetras
2 hatchet fish
5 white clouds
3 dannios
3 baby dennison barbs
3 bala sharks

I moved 8 months ago, when the tank was almost a year old. I never had ANY probs at the old house. Move went well, no deaths except for one neon tetra. Everyone was fine for a few months in the new house. About 3 months after the move, i started noticing my balas and rainbows (had 2 at the time) started getting really skiddish. freaking, i mean freaking out whenever i walked by, and whenever the light in the tank went on or off (on a timer) i mean the sharks would ram into the plants, gravel, and sides. Then the meltdown...abour 3 months ago i had 90% of my fish die within 3 days. NO SYMPTOMS. Took some dead fish and water sample to 2 LFS and NO HELP. We all scratched out heads. I let the tank sit with my few remaining friends ( 2 corys and 2 loaches and a few tetras), and after treating for internal parasites and bacteria, waterchanges, and more sitting, started restocking slowly. Now I'm almost back to where i started but am starting to notice some things. Here are the symptoms.

1 New Bala sharks are still skittish, real skittish, they are hanging out in the back most of the day, and freak out if i make any movements near the tank
2 i did a normal 10% water change 1.5 weeks ago, right after, 2 rainbows died, no symptoms other than a SMALL white patch of skin hanging off of the lower lip of the bosemani,(not characteristic of lip fungus) might be he just nicked it. He became really skittish too.

3 Did another 10% today, balas are still really skittish, and one of my baby denison barbs ($30) died, NO SYMPTOMS.

I treat the water with tap conditioner before i put it in the tank, but my tap water doesn't have a lot of chlorine or chloramine in it to begin with(i tested it)

The onlt other thing is stray voltage/current

After some intensive reading, i've come to the conclusion that i'm extreamly confused about it. Some articles state that the tank might HOLD a voltage, which isn't harmful, but if a current were to flow through it that would be bad. These articles also state that if you put a grounding probe in the water, you can actually make the problem worseby grounding it out and turning small voltage into running current. I have a multi meter, and have an engineering background. I tested for current and didn't find any (AC ampers, black probe in ground red probe in water), but found 0.02 VDC stored in the tank as if it was a battery (DC volts, both probes in water, maybe this doesn't tell much but why would it read any volts at all, i'm a little over my head with that one.) None of the electircal items i have working are causing it (Still same reading of DC volts when i unplug each item.

I'm at a loss and after my dennison kicked it today, I want answers. My 2 nearest LFS's are as clueless as I.

 

[Tolak]

What country are you from, and where does your water originate from? Also, what are you using to dechlorinate your water?

The voltage reading is odd, but 0.02vdc is an incredibly small voltage. My son is an operating engineer, deals with boilers & such all day long. I'm going to grab one of his meters in the morning, and test some tanks. I'm wondering if it isn't a slight static charge of some sort. He might have an idea about that one, moving water is molecules rubbing against each other, friction causes static electricity.

 

[bmiranda]

I'm from the US, the water is city water, not well-water. I use Aqua-safe by etra Aquaria. I used to use genisis, but can't find it anymore.

I should also add...

I became really busy a little while ago and the tank went for about 6 weeks without a water change. The nitrates went up to about 60 and a little alge gret. Suprisingly, as time went on the fish were more active, healthier and much less skittish...After the first water change following that 6 weeks, 2 rainbows dies, 1.5 weeks later the second water change killed the dennison barb. My kH has always been low but my pH has also always been stable at 6.4.


Any other ideas?

Thanks

 

[Tolak]

By origin of water I mean where does it come from. For example, mine comes from Lake Michigan. Your water supply can vary as far as the amount of additives the water company puts in, this is often connected to recent weather events if your source is surface water. Well water seems to be more seasonal, and can be affected by fertilizers & such used in farming.

I'm guessing this is the case, as you are having problems after water changes. I have the same problem after foul weather, and often the water comes out of my tap smelling like a swimming pool. I use Prime to treat the water, and often use double or even triple the suggested amount. I also try to time my water changes around the weather, though with fry tanks that need daily water changes this is impossible, so I increase the water conditioner.

AquaSafe is one of the best water treatments on the market, you may want to try increasing the dosage.

 

[Underwurlde]

To put your mind at rest, your fish deaths have NOTHING to do with 'stored?? voltage' and the readings are NOT 'odd'.

Andy

Electrical & Electronics Engineer, Masters Degree c Hons.

 

[Tolak]

To put your mind at rest, your fish deaths have NOTHING to do with 'stored?? voltage' and the readings are NOT 'odd'.

Andy

Electrical & Electronics Engineer, Masters Degree c Hons.

Thank you, but I do have one question even though such a low voltage has nothing to do with anything. What causes the slight voltage, and is my guess about friction/static even close?

 

[bmiranda]

So adding more conditioner than recomended isn't harmful?

 

[Tolak]

So adding more conditioner than recomended isn't harmful?

No it isn't. Next time you are in your lfs take a look at the back of a bottle of Prime, a Seachem product. They state that in emergency situations you can use up to 5 times the recommended dosage. I have never had a problem adding too much dechlorinator, you would have to add an incredible amount to get to a toxic level.

 

[Underwurlde]

@Tolak... Were getting into the very complicated realms of Maxwell here but it is to do with inductive and capacitive coupling between the conductive tank water (and ALSO the multimeter wires) and mains wiring etc. If it were STATIC voltages, then we'd be taking thoudands of volts, not thousandths of volts!

@bmiranda, 'So adding more conditioner than recomended isn't harmful?': Nope, but pretty pointless.


Andy

 

[Underwurlde]

Good thead about voltages here: http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=171218

 

[Tolak]

@Tolak... Were getting into the very complicated realms of Maxwell here but it is to do with inductive and capacitive coupling between the conductive tank water (and ALSO the multimeter wires) and mains wiring etc. If it were STATIC voltages, then we'd be taking thoudands of volts, not thousandths of volts!

@bmiranda, 'So adding more conditioner than recomended isn't harmful?': Nope, but pretty pointless.


Andy

So all we are seeing is a 55 gallon capacitor holding a slight charge, makes sense to me.

There is a point to adding more dechlorinator, but it depends on your water supply & what they do with it under various conditions. Dechlorinator will neuteralize a certain amount of chlorine, chloramine and ammonia per dosage. Often a water company will increase additives when they determine there are increased contaminents. Their main concern is the health of humans, not our fish. You need to increase the amount of conditioner if they increase additives such as chlorine & chloramine.

In my case this is weather related, as runoff increases contaminents, and the water company adjusts accordingly. During & after a real heavy rain they will increase more than usual, as they open the locks to the Chicago River, letting millions of gallons of storm water run into the lake, along with dozens of decades of settled contaminents from industrial waste, raw sewage, and lord knows what else. If you do a water change without increasing your water treatment you risk disaster.

The best thing you can do is learn as much as possible about your water company.

 

[Underwurlde]

^^^ Agreed.

(BTW, it's not a capacitor, current is induced in the conductor that is the fish tank water by surrounding electrical equipment, this produces a potential difference or voltage).

Andy

 

[bmiranda]

OK, so most everyone has agreed it's not the current/voltage affecting the fish. I just lost another dannio, mouth wide open stuck in plants...so sad...

I just tested both the tap and tank water...results..

Tap Tank
pH 6.8 6.8
Nitrate 0 60
Nitrite 0 0
Hardness 120ppm 120ppm
Total alkalinity 80 0
Cl2 0 0
Ammonia 0 0

 

[Tolak]

By all indications it's a water supply problem. You are having problems after a water change. Increasing the amount of AquaSafe will counteract this, I would add enough to treat the entire quantity of water in the tank. Remember that your substrate and decorations displace water, a 55 gallon tank may actually hold only 45 gallons of water.

I would add the proper amount to the output of the filter, this will circulate it throughout the tank. I add Prime to all my tanks on the fly while filling with a hose. I use at least double the amount with fry tanks, these are the few tanks I still do with a bucket so I can have better control of water flow & temperature. If you are worried about the saftey of adding dechlor to your tank, I will go downstairs now & add a 60 gallon dose of Prime to one of my 29 gallon angel tanks, without doing a water change. From what I understand you have to add somewhere around a 50 times dose to cause any problems.

Here's a link to a club around 100 miles south of me, with a water warning; http/www.champaignfish.com/

You need to know as much as you can about your water supplier.