Brother/sister Crosses

[dunchp]

Tokis,

OK. If you wish I will happily debate with you.


Endlers are Poecilia wingei; Guppies are Poecilia reticulata. Endlers and Guppies are not the same species. By wild guppies, we mean guppies that have come from the wild. Wild guppies look different to cultivated guppies. Why don't you google it and take a look.

Regarding Singapore and other fish farmed fish, please refer to my original post where I said that "The fish that you buy in shops are crap" and "this is because the commercial fish farmers are interested in profit and quantity rather than quality". What helterskelter is saying is that Fish Farms export fish because we buy them, this is why it is worth the effort. We are all in agreement.

Fish48 has already said, in his earlier post that "adding new blood would be the best option but it is not always possible", and helterskelter has said that "be[ing]selective and remov[ing] whats visibly bad, this is the best we can do". Therefore, how do you deduce that Fish48 'intentionally inbreeds'. This is rubbish and insulting and a poor thing to say about someone who has done more to save certain species from extinction than you will ever do. I suggest you go back and retract that statement.

Regarding the Skiffia, I refer you back to Fish48's post that adding new blood would be the best option, In this case it was not possible. If a fish is extinct in the wild, then there is no more stock to get. If you have 8 fish and that is all that exists then you don't have alot of choice but to breed them to keep the species going. Actually there are ways which those of us who breed fish such as those that are extinct in the wild reduce the effects of inbreeding, I would be happy to tell you about it sometime.

The reason that I keep referring to the definition of inbreeding is because you are patently wrong. Inbreeding is to breed closely related fish by definition, therefore breeding fish that are not closely related is not inbreeding. If you are going to use terms, you must understand what they mean. Wooly use of terms does more harm than good. Does everyone else understand this point?

By the way, I do not need to deny or accept anything just because you tell me I have to. Fish48 has said that "adding new blood would be the best option..." and I have said that I "agree with him 100%". So why do you persist in trying to convince us of something that we do not disagree with anyway? Outcrossing is desirable, but not always possible. Furthermore, I find your comment "What do you not understand about this basic concept of genetics?" a little patronising and I am not going to respond to it other than to say that if you are really interested in this subject, I would recommend that you go and visit the scientists at the Xiphophorus Stock Centre in Texas and spend a bit of time with them, they will explain to you what they are doing, how they are using inbreeding in cancer research etc. It is fascinating and was such an interesting visit that I will be going again in May this year, all being well.

The only point of inbreeding is not to produce fish quicker. Quite often genetic problems are caused by recessive genes and inbreeding can be used to identify those recessive genes and isolate and remove them from the gene pool. Obviously if the problems were cause by dominant genes then the frequency of them happening would either bring down the whole species or would cause only those with the homozygous recessive gene to survive.

Tokis, you are as entitled to your opinion as the rest of us are entitled to respond to you. We are also entitled to disagree with you, however it is just very tiresome when you write without first reading what the rest of us have posted.

Oh, and for the record, I think I agree with Neales points also, but I am not sure that the point regarding Dwarf Gouramis is related to genes.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Tokis,

OK. If you wish I will happily debate with you.


Endlers are Poecilia wingei; Guppies are Poecilia reticulata. Endlers and Guppies are not the same species. By wild guppies, we mean guppies that have come from the wild. Wild guppies look different to cultivated guppies. Why don't you google it and take a look.

I know endlers aren't wild guppys but many people believe they which is why i wanted to make sure what you were referring to when you talked of wild guppys.

Fish48 has already said, in his earlier post that "adding new blood would be the best option but it is not always possible", and helterskelter has said that "be[ing]selective and remov[ing] whats visibly bad, this is the best we can do". Therefore, how do you deduce that Fish48 'intentionally inbreeds'. This is rubbish and insulting and a poor thing to say about someone who has done more to save certain species from extinction than you will ever do. I suggest you go back and retract that statement.

If you look at his first post you will see;

"crossing brother and sister will do verry little damage i bred all my fish this way in other words i leve them to flock breed. i have kept some strans of fish for many years with no effects however care must be taking to remove any fish that may be deformd or that dont swim or look right. ony breed with the the best. adding new blood would be the best option but it is not always possible."



And if you check out my post after fish's, you will see that my main disagreement was originally on the "crossing brother and sister will do verry little damage" part of his post, throughout this entire thread i have disagreed with this statement.

I know that fish48 intentionally breeds inbred fish because he himself says he has "bred all of my fish this way in other words i leave them to flock breed". So i don't think what i was saying was "rubbish" when fish48 admits himself he knowing lets his fish inbreed which each other a great deal and thats the way he breeds his fish etc- i think it is you who is perhaps not reading these posts thoroughly enough.

Regarding the Skiffia, I refer you back to Fish48's post that adding new blood would be the best option, In this case it was not possible. If a fish is extinct in the wild, then there is no more stock to get. If you have 8 fish and that is all that exists then you don't have alot of choice but to breed them to keep the species going. Actually there are ways which those of us who breed fish such as those that are extinct in the wild reduce the effects of inbreeding, I would be happy to tell you about it sometime.

My disagreement with the whole skiffia fish stemmed from fish48's comment on brother/sister crosses not being very harmful and your statement in that apparently the inbreeding these skiffia fish have gone through has not harmed them, which is why i addressed the statements in the way i did etc.

The reason that I keep referring to the definition of inbreeding is because you are patently wrong. Inbreeding is to breed closely related fish by definition, therefore breeding fish that are not closely related is not inbreeding. If you are going to use terms, you must understand what they mean. Wooly use of terms does more harm than good. Does everyone else understand this point?

If someone marries cousin it is inbreeding just like if someone marries a sibling- my example original statement did not say "cousin" and "sibling" as i thought most people would understand what i was talking about (i.e breeding guppys who are from the same direct family) and i cleared this up even more in my last post. Do you not think that marrying a cousin and producing children with that cousin would be an act of inbreeding?

By the way, I do not need to deny or accept anything just because you tell me I have to. Fish48 has said that "adding new blood would be the best option..." and I have said that I "agree with him 100%". So why do you persist in trying to convince us of something that we do not disagree with anyway? Outcrossing is desirable, but not always possible. Furthermore, I find your comment "What do you not understand about this basic concept of genetics?" a little patronising and I am not going to respond to it other than to say that if you are really interested in this subject, I would recommend that you go and visit the scientists at the Xiphophorus Stock Centre in Texas and spend a bit of time with them, they will explain to you what they are doing, how they are using inbreeding in cancer research etc. It is fascinating and was such an interesting visit that I will be going again in May this year, all being well.

I have to go now but when i have the time i will address this .

The only point of inbreeding is not to produce fish quicker. Quite often genetic problems are caused by recessive genes and inbreeding can be used to identify those recessive genes and isolate and remove them from the gene pool. Obviously if the problems were cause by dominant genes then the frequency of them happening would either bring down the whole species or would cause only those with the homozygous recessive gene to survive.

Tokis, you are as entitled to your opinion as the rest of us are entitled to respond to you. We are also entitled to disagree with you, however it is just very tiresome when you write without first reading what the rest of us have posted.

Oh, and for the record, I think I agree with Neales points also, but I am not sure that the point regarding Dwarf Gouramis is related to genes.

I have to go now but when i have the time i will address this .

 

[Butch]

Hey guys, can you start a new topic for the debate about inbreeding or I may start new topic for LauraFrog and leave this topic to your debating? This debate is a little off topic. This is way random for everyone. What happened to the platies? Not goodeids and mammals thing or the diseases.

Tokis, I didn't start flaming, I just against your options that's all. And you give us lectures about inbreeding of mammals?

I hate it when everyone go debating in someone's topic that meant for her not for debate.

 

[5teady_2012]

Hey guys, can you start a new topic for the debate about inbreeding or I may start new topic for LauraFrog and leave this topic to your debating? This debate is a little off topic. This is way random for everyone. What happened to the platies? Not goodeids and mammals thing or the diseases.

Tokis, I didn't start flaming, I just against your options that's all. And you give us lectures about inbreeding of mammals?

I hate it when everyone go debating in someone's topic that meant for her not for debate.

Well said

 

[dunchp]

Yup Butch Good Point.

Forums are great, but really, to sort these things out you need to sit face to face and talk it through.

Tokis. Don't bother replying mate. We have had plenty of inches on the subject and it is not getting us anywhere. If you want to come to a British Livebearer Association meet or if we bump into each other somewhere then I will be pleased to shake your hand and sort it out over a pint, if not then just enjoy keeping your fish whichever way suits you best. We will all do the same.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Yup Butch Good Point.

Forums are great, but really, to sort these things out you need to sit face to face and talk it through.

Tokis. Don't bother replying mate. We have had plenty of inches on the subject and it is not getting us anywhere. If you want to come to a British Livebearer Association meet or if we bump into each other somewhere then I will be pleased to shake your hand and sort it out over a pint, if not then just enjoy keeping your fish whichever way suits you best. We will all do the same.

Actually i do think we are getting somewhere;

By the way, I do not need to deny or accept anything just because you tell me I have to. Fish48 has said that "adding new blood would be the best option..." and I have said that I "agree with him 100%". So why do you persist in trying to convince us of something that we do not disagree with anyway? Outcrossing is desirable, but not always possible. Furthermore, I find your comment "What do you not understand about this basic concept of genetics?" a little patronising and I am not going to respond to it other than to say that if you are really interested in this subject, I would recommend that you go and visit the scientists at the Xiphophorus Stock Centre in Texas and spend a bit of time with them, they will explain to you what they are doing, how they are using inbreeding in cancer research etc. It is fascinating and was such an interesting visit that I will be going again in May this year, all being well.

This clears a lot of things up for me, i think i must have misinterpreted some of your points, because if we agree on this then that clears a lot of things up.

The only point of inbreeding is not to produce fish quicker. Quite often genetic problems are caused by recessive genes and inbreeding can be used to identify those recessive genes and isolate and remove them from the gene pool. Obviously if the problems were cause by dominant genes then the frequency of them happening would either bring down the whole species or would cause only those with the homozygous recessive gene to survive.

Oh, and for the record, I think I agree with Neales points also, but I am not sure that the point regarding Dwarf Gouramis is related to genes.

Yes there is that, but i don't think there are any people on this forum that inbreed fish for this purpose- my points on inbreeding on purpose were primarily directed towards that do it to create new strains of guppys etc.



I agree, this thread has gone on for a while, but it hasn't been a pointless thread. I want to clear some things up with you guys on this subject to round everything said up clearly in a few points.

Inbreeding in fish;

a. Inbreeding narrows fishes gene's pools making the chances of undesirable problems more likely to occur, like weakened immune system and deformities etc.
b. Inbreeding in fish is not desirable and should be avoided whenever possible.
c. Inbreeding can be a serious problem for fish if it gets bad enough.
d. The easiest way to produce better fry from inbred fish is to breed them from fish which are not related to them at all.
e. Simply culling deformed inbred fry will not ensure that the rest of the fry won't be suffering problems caused by inbreeding- there are numerous bad consequences of inbreeding which cannot be viewed by the naked eye.



We all agree on these points yes? If so, i have no disagreements with any of you.

 

[5teady_2012]

I think this topic has been hijacked enough now.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Tokis, I didn't start flaming, I just against your options that's all. And you give us lectures about inbreeding of mammals?

You told others to ignore me in a way that was less than polite, and also basically told others that i didn't know what i was talking bout- i would call that flaming if there's any flaming on this thread at all. You then accuse me of flaming others, which you still haven't given examples of, you said inbreeding was a different matter in mammals than fish, which is something you still haven't backed up with evidence or reasoning or whatever- i wasn't lecturing you, i was disagreeing with you on what you said and giving my opinions/reasons on it; anyone would do this in such a disagreement.

I think this topic has been hijacked enough now.

I don't really think its been hijacked- everything in the debate has been on or related the topic, this whole purpose of this thread was on the discussion of the inbreeding in fish and pure strains of fish and whatnot; yes the debates gone on for a while now, but i'm just trying to tie up all the loose ends here. I don't really think "hijacked" is really the right term though, although the more we go on about stuff like this then the thread really will become hijacked.

 

[5teady_2012]

Its getting stupid now, just stop hijacking another members topic. its very unfair.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

edit.

 

[dunchp]

Tokis,

In answer to each of your points (to reach a conclusion): -

To put it all in context, alot of what we have been talking about "sometimes it is not possible", "Skiffia" etc relates to wild type fish which are extinct in the wild and only exist in tanks of people like Fish48 and myself etc. A good example is Ameca splendens, the butterfly goodeid which is extinct in the wild. Fish48 and I are keeping a strain collected in 1996 going in our tanks.

a. Inbreeding narrows fishes gene's pools making the chances of undesirable problems more likely to occur, like weakened immune system and deformities etc.

A. I agree, what happens is that by crossing fish which have a similar genetic make up, you get far more homzygous alleles than in an outcrossing, this makes recessive 'problems' manifest. This may be a desirable trait or an undesirable trait. The theory is that you cull out the undesirable traits such as deformities and keep the desirable traits. In practice, I think it is a good point you make that you cannot select out weakended immune systems and other non visible problems by looking although the theory is that these fish are dealt with by natural selection.


b. Inbreeding in fish is not desirable and should be avoided whenever possible.

B. I think we all agree. When we breed wild species we do avoid it whenever possible. This can be done either by keeping numerous tanks going Fish48 has around 65 (soon increasing to 100+) and I have 120+ tanks going and swapping fish amongst tanks or by swapping fish amongst hobbyists. Even in cultivated species, the effects of inbreeding is minimised by backcrossing. The experienced breeders do not continue to breed sibling with sibling over and over. Supposedly (I have never tested it), you need 70 tanks of any one species to maintain the genetic diversity that you would get in the wild.

c. Inbreeding can be a serious problem for fish if it gets bad enough.

C. Again I agree to a point. I agree with your point that if you are getting scores and scores of deformed fish then you need to do something about it, such as introduce new stock, although often these problems such as deformities and poor size may be caused by other things than genetics which can be resolved through a change in husbandry.

Again, as an example, we had a problem with our Butterfly Goodeids that alot of them had upturned tails, since they came from a particular collection, we couldn't just introduce new stock, we either had to give up on them or cull the trait out. We managed to cull them out.

d. The easiest way to produce better fry from inbred fish is to breed them from fish which are not related to them at all.

D. Agreed, although this is not always possible. Particularly when you are dealing with extinct in the wild fish.

e. Simply culling deformed inbred fry will not ensure that the rest of the fry won't be suffering problems caused by inbreeding- there are numerous bad consequences of inbreeding which cannot be viewed by the naked eye.

E. Agreed. As set out above, although these problems can and are mitigated by experienced breeders of both cultivated and wild species by methods of backcrossing etc.


What we must all accept is that there is no right answer. There is just a whole load of grey. What is right for me is wrong for you and what is wrong for you is right for me.

There we go, everybody happy now I hope we can draw a line under all this.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Yes i guess i essentially agree with your points, thank you for taking the time to reply back, i am glad we have this debate at a conclusion now that we agree on . Livebearers, even the common varieties, are such interesting fish, there's so much to learn on them and so many things to discuss and debate .