Brother/sister Crosses

[fish48]

Without massive amounts of tanks and a very good routine of seperating males and females i dont think there is alot a person can do about this interbreeding. I do my best to seperate them from the parents and try and give a selection of juveniles from each individual female but this is all i can do.

Your situation sounds a lot better than LauraFrogs though, at least you are getting physically healthy batches of fry, which is always a good sign. Its when people start regularly getting very weak batches of fry or fry with deformities then its time to really seriously do something about sorting out the inbreeding- i agree, its difficult to prevent all inbreeding between fry, but the main thing is to try and do your best to avoid it. I just primarily disagree with some of the other comments said on this thread here which seem to brush off the matter of inbreeding as no worry, when really it is actually a very important thing to know about when breeding livebearersetc .


If you have a pet shop willing to take or buy platys off you then that always makes things a great deal easier because it means that you won't need to keep large numbers of related males or females or have to ste up loads of tanks etc. A small amount of inbreeding between platys that are not very closely related is usually no problem at all, its just a problem when already very inbred platys continuously inbreed with each other every generation that the situation becomes bad.
Introducing fresh gene's into your livebearers gene pools by doing something like separating all your males from your females and keeping the males in an all male tank while buying a brand new male completely unrelated to all your current platys and letting him and him only mate with your female platys will help them produce much more genetically stronger fry than the fry you'd get out of your home bred males which are related to your home bred females- you can then just rehome the male after a year or so and buy a new one, so that large percentages of your fry that you decide to keep do not share the same father so at least if you do decide to breed your home bred platys with each other, you have a more genetically diverse group of platys to choose from .

Livebearers can be Inbreed for many generations
always breed from the the best fish and Any deformed fish must be removed
I breed very rare livebearers with collection data and have about 40 species. And some of these fish go back more than 20 years so to add new blood is not always possible I have kept and breed Livebearers for more than 20 years and have had very few problems.
A lot of these problems are down to poor fish keeping.

 

[dunchp]

Yup, I go along with Fish48 100% here.

Often fishkeepers cannot seem to accept that they are at fault for problems with their fish and so blame vastly complex alternative reasons for problems with simple answers. For instance, a bad feeding regime can lead to undersized fish and this is why fish bred in shops are often smaller, because they do not get a proper diet, but fishkeepers cannot accept that they are failing their fish so they blame poor size on inbreeding.

Inbreeding is not so much the problem; indescriminate inbreeding is the problem. Again a problem of poor fishkeeping. The most important aspect of successful (in)breeding of fish is culling, since inbreeding fixes undesirable traits aswell as desirable traits.

For instance, in many of the Xiphophorus species there is a small form male and large form male. If you are going to inbreed then you need to cull out the small form males otherwise you will end up being overrun with small form males and will lose the large form males from your stocks. Particularly since the small form males mature early and impregnate all the females before the larger form reach sexual maturity.

The same with guppies; the inbred fish that you get in auctions which have been inbred in tanks by hobbyists are still the superior, hardy fish which you used to buy many years ago. The fish that you buy in shops are crap. This is because the commercial fish farmers are interested in profit and quantity rather than quality. The difference between indescriminate inbreeding and culling.

I am not sure about the comment about 'a small amount of inbreeding between platys that are not very closely related' at all as it sounds like a bit of an oxymoron. inbreeding between fish which are not very closely related is not, by definition inbreeding.

In Gambusia gaigei, for instance, the entire stock in existence nowadays came from three fish which were saved from extinction, carefully reared by scientists and then repopulated into a refugium in Texas. Responsible inbreeding. No problems with inbreeding there.

 

[Butch]

Finally the real experts are here! Xiphophorus Center has some inbred xiphophorus for many years, some in 50th generations. I got a group of orangetailed goodeid that's been inbreeding since 2005 and they are do well with no problems. I even have a whole group of feeder guppies that come from a single female and they are very hardy.

Laura, go ahead with your copper black and pied platies, just don't mind Tokis because she/he worried too much about how we "harm" the fish keeping hobbies. (No offense Tokis)

 

[fish48]

Finally the real experts are here! Xiphophorus Center has some inbred xiphophorus for many years, some in 50th generations. I got a group of orangetailed goodeid that's been inbreeding since 2005 and they are do well with no problems. I even have a whole group of feeder guppies that come from a single female and they are very hardy.

Laura, go ahead with your copper black and pied platies, just don't mind Tokis because she/he worried too much about how we "harm" the fish keeping hobbies. (No offense Tokis)

i breed goodeids and have breed most of them for meny generations with out any problem

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Yup, I go along with Fish48 100% here.

Often fishkeepers cannot seem to accept that they are at fault for problems with their fish and so blame vastly complex alternative reasons for problems with simple answers. For instance, a bad feeding regime can lead to undersized fish and this is why fish bred in shops are often smaller, because they do not get a proper diet, but fishkeepers cannot accept that they are failing their fish so they blame poor size on inbreeding.

So you basically deny that inbreeding has weakened guppys as a whole and that this concept is just a complete fabrication made up by fishkeepers who don't look after their fish well, and that inbreeding has nothing to do with the decline in the overall strength/health of guppys as a whole??

Inbreeding is not so much the problem; indescriminate inbreeding is the problem. Again a problem of poor fishkeeping. The most important aspect of successful (in)breeding of fish is culling, since inbreeding fixes undesirable traits aswell as desirable traits.

What is "desirable" for us in fish often isn't the case for fish...Selective breeding has created some real pet shop horrors of fish of fish because people think they're desireable, regardless of the cost to the fishes quality of life.

I don't think inbreeding is ever desirable for the fish, it is only ever viewed as desirable by people who want to quickly create different colors or patterns in fish, although even from a people's perspective i wouldn't exactly describe inbreeding as "desirable".

For instance, in many of the Xiphophorus species there is a small form male and large form male. If you are going to inbreed then you need to cull out the small form males otherwise you will end up being overrun with small form males and will lose the large form males from your stocks. Particularly since the small form males mature early and impregnate all the females before the larger form reach sexual maturity.

The same with guppies; the inbred fish that you get in auctions which have been inbred in tanks by hobbyists are still the superior, hardy fish which you used to buy many years ago. The fish that you buy in shops are crap. This is because the commercial fish farmers are interested in profit and quantity rather than quality. The difference between indescriminate inbreeding and culling.

The ones bought from petshops are mostly weak not primarily from inbreeding, but because there is a lot less care taken in transporting them and they get exposed to a much greater variety of diseases and parasites than what most privately owned guppys will ever get exposed to. Just because a fish you've breed doesn't get sick doesn't mean its any genetically stronger than the fish been sold in pet shops.



IMHO, there's a big problem with your theory that if you cull visibly deformed fry you'll be fine- in reality, the large majority of the negative effects that inbreeding has on fish, like decreased life expectancy and weakened immune system for example, are not visible to the naked eye and are only apparent much later on in the fishes life, so these things go unchecked.
The greatest problems with inbred pet shop guppys are not deformities (in fact most of the only times i've seen deformed fish from inbreeding are fish who have been led to breed as they like in private owners tanks), but rather weakened immune systems and decreased life expectancies and more.
Just because a fish doesn't get sick doesn't mean that it has a good immune system, it could very much be the case that simply the fish hasn't been exposed to any diseases so that is the reason why it doesn't get sick- if your tanks are disease-free, then its no wonder why you don't get guppys dropping dead left right and centre. But the real test of a fishes immune system is to see how well it copes and how quickly it recovers when it is exposed to diseases- when was the last time any of your fish got exposed to something like columnaris? How well did they cope then? You seem to think that if you just cull the deformed looking fry, then it means that the inbreeding your fish are going through isn't having negative effects on them.

I am not sure about the comment about 'a small amount of inbreeding between platys that are not very closely related' at all as it sounds like a bit of an oxymoron. inbreeding between fish which are not very closely related is not, by definition inbreeding.

I didn't say that "a small amount of inbreeding means its not really inbreeding" i said 'a small amount of inbreeding between platys that are not very closely related', which is a statement which does not contradict itself, so how is it an oxymoron??

Finally the real experts are here! Xiphophorus Center has some inbred xiphophorus for many years, some in 50th generations. I got a group of orangetailed goodeid that's been inbreeding since 2005 and they are do well with no problems. I even have a whole group of feeder guppies that come from a single female and they are very hardy.

Laura, go ahead with your copper black and pied platies, just don't mind Tokis because she/he worried too much about how we "harm" the fish keeping hobbies. (No offense Tokis)

When have i ever said you guys harm the fishkeeping hobbies? My concern is only for the fish, i honestly don't really care whether you guys have pretty fish or not. What right do you have to say to others to basically ignore me? Offense taken. At least my primary concerns are for the fishes health and its quality of life, i refuse to change opinion on the issue of serious inbreeding in fish until i am thoroughly convinced otherwise that it is fine or advisable....

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Another point- i think it is to be disillusioned to believe that creating new strains of guppys by inbreed them is "improving" the species. When has inbreeding ever been a positive thing, that has improved things? They say with human beings, a certain percentage of genetically inherited diseases/conditions were created/caused by inbreeding, and the science of this is thoroughly explained in nature, do you deny that this does not also apply to guppys? Or do you believe that guppys are exempt this very basic rule in nature?

For people who breed guppys to great new strains, like new colors, patterns or tail/finnage types etc, the breeders primarily objective is to create the look they are aiming for in the guppys they are breeding, their secondary objective is to not breed guppys who are ugly/deformed or die very easily.
To believe that you're "improving" guppys or any other livebearer for that matter by inbreeding them together generation after generation is delusional. I would consider people who breed guppys/platys/whatever primarily for good robust health/strong immune system, healthy physique and normal nature etc as people breeding fish to improve the species, but people who breed fish primarily for their cosmetic appearance (which is essentially what breeding new guppys strains is about) via inbreeding the fish are not ones whose primary objective is to improve the species, even if they do care about the health/quality of life or whatever about the fish.
I think this is something you guys who breed fish for their appearance via inbreeding have to come to terms with. To say inbreeding is not damaging to fish is not correct- by inbreeding the fish you are narrowing their gene pools, making the chances of undesirable and damaging gene's which carry things like genetic diseases far more likely etc; there is no way you can really deny this?

The main reason why human beings are evolved not to be attracted to their parents/siblings/relatives is primarily to prevent us inbreeding, since inbreeding has had damaging impacts on our species when it has become prevalent and many of us still suffer the consequences of it to this day. Articles on human inbreeding;

"Many of the illnesses we suffer today are down to our ancestors not having enough choice in the mating game, UK researchers believe."


<a href="http/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4204789.stm" target="_blank">http/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4204789.stm</a>



"Dr Hooper said there was a higher risk of inherited abnormalities in babies if blood relatives married and there were already abnormalities in the family.

Couples must be encouraged to take advantage of support and screening, she said.

"It's a myth that if you marry your first-cousin you will automatically have a child with congenital abnormalities but the risk does rise from one in 50 to one in 25.

"But if you have already had a child with such abnormalities then that risk rises to one in four, so people do need to be clear about these risks."

<a href="http/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/humber/7217836.stm" target="_blank">http/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/humber/7217836.stm</a>




These things apply just as much to fish as they do to us and any other animal.


Edit:

In Gambusia gaigei, for instance, the entire stock in existence nowadays came from three fish which were saved from extinction, carefully reared by scientists and then repopulated into a refugium in Texas. Responsible inbreeding. No problems with inbreeding there.

It is never correct to say there are "never" problems with inbreeding animals in captivity, the fish may have been saved for now from extinction, but that doesn't mean that their inbreeding could ironically eventually destroy them none the less. Animals can go extinct from inbreeding, it can be that dangerous- case and point, for example a rare type of snake was going extinct from inbreeding, and it wasn't until fresh blood was introduced to the snakes gene pool that they were saved from extinction;

[URL="http/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/504537.stm"]http/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/504537.stm[/URL]

Inbreeding wiping out African captive lions;

[URL="http/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4101049.stm"]http/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4101049.stm[/URL]

And wild ones;

[URL="http/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/1630616.stm"]http/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/1630616.stm[/URL]

Inbreeding threat to orangutans;

[URL="http/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4640420.stm"]http/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4640420.stm[/URL]



And so much more....

 

[helterskelter]

Yup, I go along with Fish48 100% here.

Often fishkeepers cannot seem to accept that they are at fault for problems with their fish and so blame vastly complex alternative reasons for problems with simple answers. For instance, a bad feeding regime can lead to undersized fish and this is why fish bred in shops are often smaller, because they do not get a proper diet, but fishkeepers cannot accept that they are failing their fish so they blame poor size on inbreeding.

So you basically deny that inbreeding has weakened guppys as a whole and that this concept is just a complete fabrication made up by fishkeepers who don't look after their fish well, and that inbreeding has nothing to do with the decline in the overall strength/health of guppys as a whole??

Have you kept wild and cultavated guppies?
Do you know how long they live for?
If so how long have they lived for?

If these cultavated fish was so poor then Singapore farmers would not risk the export!
Stress caused by exporting is very common and yes dose kill 10's of thousands of fish a year but is nothing compared to the millions produced, So it's still small and worth the risk.

All we are saying is that with your many years of experance (15 years with rare and cultavated livebearer myself) is to be selective and remove whats visibly bad, this is the best we can do, as we cant afford to have them DNA tested for bad genetic trates!!!

Also as Dunchp has said we hobbiests and scientists have saved a few fish, not from the wild but still have the fish in the hobby.

Take Skiffia francesae for one, these are extinct in the wild and one hobbiest has kepet this fish for the last 30 years from about 8 wild fish he was given. James K. Langhammer solely worked on this fish for over 10 years as almost no other fish keeper could keep them alive now, however now due to this one person many Zoo's and hobbiests have collections but they are still a nightmare, Now coz of inbreeding but coz of their nature.

As you may guess as I've said already fish48 is spot on here.

 

[dunchp]

Tokis, I am not going to get into a debate with you over the merits or demerits of inbreeding. I made my points as eloquently as I could and am happy that my points are valid.

I know fish48 and helterskelter and they are among the most knowledgable people in the livebearer fishkeeping hobby. Fish48 has a proven track record with livebearers that other people fail with and that is the proof of the pudding.

Your insistence that your comment that 'a small amount of inbreeding between platys that are not very closely related is usually no problem at all' is valid is interesting. A definition of 'inbreeding' is 'the interbreeding of closely related individuals especially to preserve and fix desirable characters of and to eliminate unfavorable characters from a stock ', therefore, by definition inbreeding is the interbreeding of closely related individuals and 'a small amount of inbreeding between platies that are not very closely related' is not, by definition, inbreeding.

Also the fact that you are bringing in inbreeding of mammals to reinforce your point when we are talking about fish is also telling; fish and mammals are different. Obviously inbreeding in mammals is a problem and this is why one is not allowed to mate with ones relatives. It has no bearing on fish.

By the way Butch; the fish that you are referring to is Xiphophorus couchianus. I think they are up to the 65th generation now. I have some fo this fish and they are a cracking fish.

Also Tokis. I did not 'basically deny that inbreeding has weakened guppys as a whole and that this concept is just a complete fabrication made up by fishkeepers who don't look after their fish well', read my post again; particularly the bit about indescriminate inbreeding as you seem to have got completely the wrong end of the stick.

Tokis, I do think you have a point regarding culling visually deformed fish, there are deformities which you cannot see and you cannot cull these fish. This is a good point.

 

[Butch]

Tokis, I think you need to calm down, its only five or six unrelated platies come from different sources and bunch of fry so there's not much of inbreeding. You worrying too much about the fish lately.

Actually im going agreed with Dunchp and there are lots of private breeders who has inbred livebearers and they are stronger than commerical livebearers (not due to inbreed but due to stress, disease, lots of things).

Inbreeding fish and mammals are two different things.

I think Laura should listen to fish48 and dunchp's advice because they knows how to deal with the livebearers.

Tokis no more debate or flaming over the platies or other subjects. Im done with it because I don't want to add more stress on LauraFrog.

What I mean we "harm" fish keeping hobby is that you think we do inbreeding our fish for ugly shapes such as balloon or longfinned. (I like both balloon and longfinned as long as they are healthy). And fancy goldfish have been here for many years.

So yeah I do have right to say ignore you because there are lots of random answers of yours that's don't make any senses right now.

Don't worry about LauraFrog's platies, you need to worry about your fish.

 

[5teady_2012]

Tokis?

What i want to know then is....

From day one, there was adam and eve (or if not that, it had to start from a male and female right?)

Now if thats the case, humans are all inbred full stop, there is no doubt it if you actually think about it otheriwse there would no be human race...

Inbreeding does only not happen as much now a days becasue you are brought up to be basically trained that its wrong and also told by the law its wrong, but in reality, years and years ago, it was a way of the human race surviving, its our instinct to survive.

Although i would never even think about mating with a relative, this is only because i have been basically trained that this is wrong.

(you put 20 human babies on a island with nobody to teach them anything, what do you think there instincts will be when they are older)

We are just like any other living thing on this planet, some die old, some die young, some die unexpectedly etc..

This is our way of life,

Its just we have evolved and come to learn a way (such has meds and hospitals etc) of surviving lots of things that really should originally kill us... without this we are just like all things great and small and thats...

You do what you do to continue existance and Only the strong survive..

 

[nmonks]

If these cultavated fish was so poor then Singapore farmers would not risk the export!

Well this is rubbish for a start. According to scientists looking at dwarf gouramis Colisa lalia, not less than 22% of the stock sent out by the fish farms were infected with the dwarf gourami virus. Given that this virus is [1] incurable and [2] highly contagioius, by your reckoning the Singapore fish farmers would have stopped sending out infected dwarf gouramis. Have they heck!

Everyone in the wholesale and retail side of the trade knows that Singaporean dwarf gouramis are a major risk, and the only reason they're still being sold at all is that the demand from novice fishkeepers is still huge, as much as writers like me repeatedly make the point that this gouramis are not worth buying (at least not unless you can get them from a safe source like a local breeder). While that demand persists, the fish farmers have no incentive to switch to healthy stock and safer farming practises.

Ultimately fish farmers couldn't care less about the quality of the fish they send out, provided wholesalers are happy enough to buy them again. And the demand from wholesalers depends on how well the retailers can sell such fish. The minimum demand is that the fish survive the few weeks or months between export from the fish farm and arrival in the hobbyist's fish tank. Obviously most fish do a lot better than that, but some do not, particularly where the consumers are inexperienced hobbyists and can't tell the difference between weak stock and their own incompetence. Dwarf gouramis, neon tetras, and the mass-produced livebearers largely fall into these categories because they're the ones that appeal most to beginners. I've long since given up with both neons and dwarf gouramis because of problems with Pleistophora and Dwarf Gourami Disease respectively, and the quality of livebearers in the average aquarium shop is pretty poor. Not quite as bad as "mixed African cichlids" but close.

Cheers, Neale

 

[Colin_T]

The ones outside are being culled naturally by the elements. If you leave them out there you will develop a hardy strain. As mentioned by everyone else, inbreeding can be a problem but chances are the fish you bought from the shop and have in your tank, are all related anyway.
Some fish like killifish can be inbred for generations with little or no adverse effects. Other fish like rainbowfish start to show serious deformities after only a couple of parent to offspring matches. Livebearers fall in between these two groups and as long as you destroy any deformed fish, only reed from good stock and add new blood where possible, you should be fine.
As for living in Qld, shove a heap of plastic tubs out the back for them. Free heating, lucky bugger.

 

[nmonks]

From day one, there was adam and eve (or if not that, it had to start from a male and female right?)

Wrong. There's no cut-off point between species, where some pre-human ape-man mother gave birth to a completely human child. Usually what happens is there's an isolate population of individuals that, because it is no longer interbreeding with the majority of the members of its species, experiences distinct genetic drift. That whole subset population mixes genes amongst itself, so i gradually changes relative the major population. Eventually that subset of individuals can become sufficiently distinct over time that it is considered a new species. But there's no sudden cut-off, and it likely takes tens or hundreds of thousands of years for any differences between the subset and the major population to become sufficient that the subset is a new species.

Now if thats the case, humans are all inbred full stop, there is no doubt it if you actually think about it otheriwse there would no be human race...

Not really. Most species must have come from subsets of bigger populations. All populations experience genetic change, but normally any mutations simply get "washed out" over time. Only under exceptional circumstances, for example where mutations appear in a geographically isolated population, can they accumulate over time and get shared within that group sufficiently to drive speciation. But that original isolated subset still needs to be sufficiently large that it is viable; there's ample evidence from other large mammals to show that once populations get below a certain size, they gradually fade away thanks to inbreeding. This is currently a big problem with cheetahs thanks to some unknown "genetic bottleneck" in the past where they were reduced to a very few individuals. So the ideal that half a dozen humans isolated from thousands of ape-men gave rise to our species is highly unlikely.

Inbreeding does only not happen as much now a days becasue you are brought up to be basically trained that its wrong and also told by the law its wrong, but in reality, years and years ago, it was a way of the human race surviving, its our instinct to survive.

This actually isn't true. Incest taboos are common and ancient, and characteristic of most cultures even among the poor. Exceptions, surprisingly enough, tended to be in the aristocracy, where close marriages were essential to keep land and wealth within a limited number of families. While its true to say the problems of physically moving long distances meant that most people lived their whole lives within relative small areas, marriages were still arranged to ensure at least some degree of out-breeding.

Cheers, Neale

 

[dunchp]

Guys,

Neale, I agree with your point about fish farmers breeding for quantity rather than quality and the problems this causes. I was interested to read about your reference to Dwarf Gouramis, but is this caused by inbreeding? I thought it was tranmitted through water, but I do not profess to have any expertise in the matter and of course you would know better than I.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Have you kept wild and cultavated guppies?
Do you know how long they live for?
If so how long have they lived for?

Of course i have kept cultivated guppys, my longest lived one was 2 years and a few months old however he was a guppy i bred from my own guppy stock who are not inbred at all (i take great pains to help prevent inbreeding between my fish, and the fruits of my efforts have results in very robust strong healthy guppys and platys), he never got sick during his entire life and he fathered many offspring, many of which i still have today. By wild guppys, do you mean ones like endlers or other types of guppys?

If these cultavated fish was so poor then Singapore farmers would not risk the export!
Stress caused by exporting is very common and yes dose kill 10's of thousands of fish a year but is nothing compared to the millions produced, So it's still small and worth the risk.

Seriously, as nmonks has said, Singapore doesn't really care about the quality of the fish they produce and how weak they are- the common breeds of fish cost so little to produce, that even if 10's of thousands of them die the buisnesses still make huge profits.

All we are saying is that with your many years of experance (15 years with rare and cultavated livebearer myself) is to be selective and remove whats visibly bad, this is the best we can do, as we cant afford to have them DNA tested for bad genetic trates!!!

By being selective, in what context do you mean this? The pro-inbreeding group here seem to think there's nothing from from breeding guppys/platys from obviously inbred batches of fry who have defects as long as the obviously defective ones aren't used. I disagree with this- i think if someone is getting defects from inbreeding regularly in their batches of fry, they should introduce new blood to the stock immediately to help re-freshen the gene pools, peopel like fish48 seem to be far more concerned about contaminating their precious colour/pattern strains of guppys with different varieties though than actually doing something about the inbreeding that is causing the problems in the first place.

There's no excuse for intentional inbreeding, which is what fish48 and numerous other people here on this thread seem to do.

Also as Dunchp has said we hobbiests and scientists have saved a few fish, not from the wild but still have the fish in the hobby.

Take Skiffia francesae for one, these are extinct in the wild and one hobbiest has kepet this fish for the last 30 years from about 8 wild fish he was given. James K. Langhammer solely worked on this fish for over 10 years as almost no other fish keeper could keep them alive now, however now due to this one person many Zoo's and hobbiests have collections but they are still a nightmare, Now coz of inbreeding but coz of their nature.

As you may guess as I've said already fish48 is spot on here.

Have you ever kept these skiffia fish though? How certain are you that inbreeding has not taken a toll on the fish when you don't have non-inbred fish to compare with them??


edit: Not just that, but i ask you a very important question- if this guy who saved these skiffia fish from extinction had the option to have breed from a larger and more genetically diverse group of fish, don't you think he would of? Why do you that that is? Its because he would have wanted to avoid inbreeding the fish given the chance, and why do you think that is?

Tokis, I am not going to get into a debate with you over the merits or demerits of inbreeding. I made my points as eloquently as I could and am happy that my points are valid.

I know fish48 and helterskelter and they are among the most knowledgable people in the livebearer fishkeeping hobby. Fish48 has a proven track record with livebearers that other people fail with and that is the proof of the pudding.

Your insistence that your comment that 'a small amount of inbreeding between platys that are not very closely related is usually no problem at all' is valid is interesting. A definition of 'inbreeding' is 'the interbreeding of closely related individuals especially to preserve and fix desirable characters of and to eliminate unfavorable characters from a stock ', therefore, by definition inbreeding is the interbreeding of closely related individuals and 'a small amount of inbreeding between platies that are not very closely related' is not, by definition, inbreeding.

So your only point to posting towards me was to make a point which you now don't want to debate about? Fine then, but that doesn't mean that i won't still address certain points in your post.

I don't get why you keep on bring this thing up about the small amount of inbreeding comment, breeding between any fish which are related to each other, whether closely related or not is by definition inbreeding. Producing offspring with a cousin is inbreeding just as much as producing offspring with a sibling is, the only difference is the level of how closely related the individuals are- individuals that are not that closely related are not going to produce as badly inbred offspring as say sibling crosses will.

The only point of inbreeding is so that breeders can quickly produce the look they want in fish quicker- it doesn't do anything positive for the fish though from the fishes point of view. Do you deny this?

Also the fact that you are bringing in inbreeding of mammals to reinforce your point when we are talking about fish is also telling; fish and mammals are different. Obviously inbreeding in mammals is a problem and this is why one is not allowed to mate with ones relatives. It has no bearing on fish.

By the way Butch; the fish that you are referring to is Xiphophorus couchianus. I think they are up to the 65th generation now. I have some fo this fish and they are a cracking fish.

Also Tokis. I did not 'basically deny that inbreeding has weakened guppys as a whole and that this concept is just a complete fabrication made up by fishkeepers who don't look after their fish well', read my post again; particularly the bit about indescriminate inbreeding as you seem to have got completely the wrong end of the stick.

Tokis, I do think you have a point regarding culling visually deformed fish, there are deformities which you cannot see and you cannot cull these fish. This is a good point.

Of course mammals and fish are different however they still share a great deal of things in common, and the rules and effects of inbreeding apply just as much to mammals as they do to fish. If you deny this, can you prove it otherwise?



And BTW, inbreeding, whether indiscriminate or not, it does weaken fish. Fish have gene pools, inbreeding narrows gene pools, inbred gene pools make the occurrence of genetic diseases and conditions and undesirable problems far more likely to come about. When more care is taken into inbreeding fish, they probably won't be as bad off as more indiscriminately inbred fish, but at the end of the day the negative effects of inbreeding will still be taking place in either situation. Do you deny this? What do you not understand about this basic concept of genetics?

Tokis, I think you need to calm down, its only five or six unrelated platies come from different sources and bunch of fry so there's not much of inbreeding. You worrying too much about the fish lately.

Inbreeding fish and mammals are two different things.

Flaming? Where? You're the one who flamed. And secondly, i'm very calm, in fact i actually enjoy debating- if people didn't debate stuff, then there would be so much more untrue information widely believed in this hobby, you're the one whose standing in the way of progress by trying to stop people like me from speaking my opinions.

Secondly, inbreeding in fish and inbreeding in mammals are not two different things, if you disagree, then can you explain how you came to such an opinion or least give evidence for your confident statements? Surely if you've researched this kind of stuff, if should be easy to back up your statements with reasoning and evidence, like i have.

I think Laura should listen to fish48 and dunchp's advice because they knows how to deal with the livebearers.

Tokis no more debate or flaming over the platies or other subjects. Im done with it because I don't want to add more stress on LauraFrog.

What I mean we "harm" fish keeping hobby is that you think we do inbreeding our fish for ugly shapes such as balloon or longfinned. (I like both balloon and longfinned as long as they are healthy). And fancy goldfish have been here for many years.

So yeah I do have right to say ignore you because there are lots of random answers of yours that's don't make any senses right now.

Don't worry about LauraFrog's platies, you need to worry about your fish.

Oh how noble of you , you don't want any stress on laurafrog, well then why don't you tell everyone else to stop posting too on this thread too? Because if Laura''s stressed, then she'd rather this thread by stopped completely.


I never said you guys harmed the hobby by breeding different appearances in fish, i said inbreeding harms the fish by narrowing their gene pools and this fact still remains true. If you can't handle people posting opinions opposite to yours, then perhaps you should try out a milder forum- i haven't flamed or said anything personally offensive towards anyone in this thread, and there is nothing wrong with debating; if you're truely concerned about me and the tone of this thread, then contact a mod.

The ones outside are being culled naturally by the elements. If you leave them out there you will develop a hardy strain. As mentioned by everyone else, inbreeding can be a problem but chances are the fish you bought from the shop and have in your tank, are all related anyway.
Some fish like killifish can be inbred for generations with little or no adverse effects. Other fish like rainbowfish start to show serious deformities after only a couple of parent to offspring matches. Livebearers fall in between these two groups and as long as you destroy any deformed fish, only reed from good stock and add new blood where possible, you should be fine.
As for living in Qld, shove a heap of plastic tubs out the back for them. Free heating, lucky bugger.

Yes i agree with you, particularly on the points of adding new blood whenever possible and only breeding from robust healthy stock .


I agree with nmonks on his points as well .