Biotype Water Conditions Vs. Breeding Water Conditions

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RobRocksFishTank

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Okay, I know this topic can get heated. Let's try to keep it on an even keel, so that the thread can be open and informative.
 
I've taken care of lots of different kinds of animals, When it comes to captive breeding, evolution takes over and the animals change over generations adjusting to the breeding conditions. With fish that change can be very quick and the fish that you buy at your LFS may only be a few generations from being wild caught, but they have already adapted to the water conditions in which they were hatched/born in.
 
Having made a meager living as a LFS employee, I learned that wild caught fish can require different water conditions than captive bred fish. All it takes is a couple of generations for some of them to adapt to something "unnatural" compared to wild conditions, within species limitations.
 
Discus... (Typo intended.)
 
Personally I have never "changed" my water conditions for breeding fish. I have just had a pair of wild caught  Laetacara Thayeri spawn and raise fry to free swimming in a community grow out tank.
 
With certain fish, breeding happens without knowing and the eggs will be eaten. I have been lucky enough to see (a few years ago now) my pictus catfish spawn, it was night and I was sitting up with my little boy who was sick. I have also seen my clown loach spawning but not been able to raise any fry. I also saw my weather loach spawning, but did manage to raise fry on that occasion. These 3 species of fish are unheard of - or rare to spawn in an aquarium.
 
Yeah, that's not quite what I'm talking about. I'm talking about setting your water conditions for keeping your fish. Some people think you should mimic the water conditions found in their natural habitat. Others think that you should match the conditions that the fish were raised in.
 
No sure how feasible it is to find out what your fish were raised in. I doubt if most LFS will know the answer to that.
 
RobRocksFishTank said:
Okay, I know this topic can get heated. Let's try to keep it on an even keel, so that the thread can be open and informative.
 
I've taken care of lots of different kinds of animals, When it comes to captive breeding, evolution takes over and the animals change over generations adjusting to the breeding conditions. With fish that change can be very quick and the fish that you buy at your LFS may only be a few generations from being wild caught, but they have already adapted to the water conditions in which they were hatched/born in.
 
Having made a meager living as a LFS employee, I learned that wild caught fish can require different water conditions than captive bred fish. All it takes is a couple of generations for some of them to adapt to something "unnatural" compared to wild conditions, within species limitations.
 
Discus... (Typo intended.)
This is a complicated topic, and the bolded section is really the part that causes the concern. The question is: Where is the boundary for 'specie limitation'? How does a fish keeper know where the line of demarcation for the boundary is? How does a fishkeeper distinguish 'surviving' from 'thriving'? How does the fishkeeper know if the fish they are buying from the LFS are only a few generations removed (if more than one) from the wild, or if they are part of a massive breeding project that's lasted over many decades?


With all these questions, I always lean to the side of 'natural' water chemistry. The closer our water is to their natural conditions, the better we can care for our fish. It would be a safer assumption to consider that a fish is less likely to lose its ability to exist/thrive in its native water conditions than it would be to assume that they are completely adapted to the 'new' water, IMHO.


For example, some 'soft water' fish can survive in higher hardness than would ever be found in their home territories. But, I've found that often times, these fish die several years before their full life expectancy. Is it because their bodies are working harder to deal with the water chemistry, and even though they 'seem' fine, are actually slowly overworking their systems?

Just as keeping a fish in warmer conditions than is found in nature speeds up their metabolism and can lead to earlier deaths (this has been well documented, I believe), could not a similar thing be happening to our fish if kept in their 'LFS' conditions rather than their natural ones?

After all, in all seriousness, what is the goal of the breeder? Usually, the goal of big breeding operations is not the best welfare for their fish, but the highest profit margin. That means, they need to be kept in the water that allows them to keep them with the least amount of work/effort, and still be able to breed. But, that's not necessarily going to produce adaptive changes within the fish in a few generations that will be noticeable to the fishkeeper... nor is there any evidence that the captive breds are losing their ability to adapt back to their natural water chemistry.


For me, there are just far too many questions to have a truly definitive stance on the issue. And for me, I try to stick to fish that are found in nature in water very close to the same chemistry as comes from my tap.
 
For some reason, quote is not working for me.
 
In response to Munroco, they should absolutely be able to get that information. Do you think the LFS would buy a bunch of sensitive fish that were kept at a pH of 5.5 if they could not provide that for them? As an ex LFS store employee, I talked to and visited our distributor(s). They were very knowledgeable about the source of their fish. That's how we made sure that we were getting quality stock that would live in our store and that our customers could keep. If I couldn't get the information that I needed, I wouldn't buy them.
 
JD's post is about as good as it gets for a summation of this issue, and I am in the same group of aquarists.  I am not a professional biologist/ichthyologist; I've been in this hobby for 20+ years, but since taking early retirement in 2007 due to cancer (nasty, but fortunately in my case not life-threatening so far) I have had the time to delve into this more than previously.  Over the past six years I have carried out a lot of research into fish species and habitats, and I have some observations to support much of what JD surmised.
 
The question of fish managing (JD's "surviving") as opposed to thriving is crucial.  A German study by Rolf Geisler and Sergio R. Annibal on Paracheirodon axelrodi (cardinal tetra) back in 1984 was translated into English and appeared in August 1987 issue of TFH under the title "Ecology of the Cardinal Tetra, Paracheirodon axelrodi (Pisces, Characoidea), in the River Basin of the Rio Negro, Brazil, as well as Breeding-related Factors."  Summarizing the habitat waters of this widely-distributed species they gave a pH range from 3.97 to 5.1, a general hardness range from 0 to 0.03 dH, and a conductivity from 3.4 to 41 siemens.  Fish from these habitats when placed in water with higher and varying hardness had lifespans that basically related to the increase in GH.  Dissection indicated that death resulted from calcium blockage of the kidney tubes, and this became more severe with a shorter lifespan the higher the GH.  The study surmised that after gradual acclimation over more than five generations, the species was better able to manage up to a point, though spawning did not occur.  Dr. Stanley Weitzman and a team of biologists carried out studies on different forest fish species and a major portion of their two-part article (TFH, June-July 1996) deals with providing suitable water for these fish.
 
But there is more to this, and here we come to stress.  Stress is the root cause of almost all disease and health problems of aquarium fish.  Today we recognize that the health of any living organism is directly related to the level of stress inflicted upon it; for fish this is a major problem because the fish cannot do anything to reduce or eliminate it—they can only fight it or succumb to it.  Our fish are confined to the small space of their aquarium, and only the aquarist can control their environment.  Biology Online defines stress:
 
The sum of the biological reactions to any adverse stimulus—physical, mental or emotional, internal or external—that tends to disturb the organisms homeostasis; should these compensating reactions be inadequate or inappropriate, they may lead to disorders.
 
Homeostasis is defined as “the tendency of an organism or a cell to regulate its internal conditions, usually by a system of feedback controls, so as to stabilize health and functioning, regardless of the outside changing conditions.”  Physiological homeostasis, or physical equilibrium, is the internal process animals use to maintain their health and life: “the complex chain of internal chemical reactions that keep the pH of its blood steady, its tissues fed, and the immune system functioning” (Muha, 2006).
 
Four important body functions of homeostasis are closely associated with processes in the gills: gas exchange, hydromineral (osmoregulation) control, acid-base balance [pH] and nitrogenous waste excretion [ammonia].  These processes are possible because of the close proximity of the blood flowing through the gills to the surrounding water, as well as the differences in the chemical composition of these two fluids (Bartelme, 2004).  Each species of fish has evolved within a specific environment—and by “environment” in this context we mean everything associated with the water in which the fish lives—and the physiological homeostasis only functions well within that environment.  This greater dependence upon their surrounding environment is why fish are more susceptible to stress than many other animals (Wedemeyer, 1996).
 
The effects of stress on fish are very complicated physiologically, and are often subtle.  There may or may not be external signs discernible to us—it can continue for weeks and even months, sometimes up to the point when the fish just suddenly dies.  The reasons for this are involved.
 
Adrenaline released during the stress response increases blood flow to the gills to provide for the increased oxygen demands of stress.  The release of adrenaline into the blood stream elevates the heart rate, blood flow and blood pressure.  This increases the volume of blood in vessels contained within the gills, increasing the surface area of the gills to help the fish absorb more oxygen from the water.  The elevated blood flow allows increased oxygen uptake for respiration but also increases the permeability of the gills to water and ions.  This is what is known as the osmorespiratory compromise (Folmar & Dickhoff, 1980; Mazeaud et al., 1977).  In freshwater fish, this increases water influx and ion losses.  This is more critical in small fish than larger due to the gill surface to body mass ratio (Bartelme, 2004).
 
Short-term stress will cause an increase in heart rate, blood pressure, and respiration as described in the preceding paragraph.  The fish can only maintain these altered states for a short and finite period of time before they will either adapt or (more often) the stress will become chronic.  During this initial stage the fish may look and act relatively normal, but it is depleting energy reserves because of the extra physiological requirements placed upon it.  At the chronic stage the hormone cortisol is released, which is responsible for many of the negative health effects associated with stress.
 
One of the most characteristic aspects of stress in fish is osmoregulatory disturbance, which is related to the effects of both catecholamine and cortisol hormones.  The extent of the disturbance following stress depends upon the ionic and osmotic gradients (difference) between the internal fluids of the fish and its surrounding environment (water)—something we will explore in more detail later.  If the stress is persistent and of sufficient intensity, changes in the cellular structure of the gills may occur under the influence of cortisol.  In this situation, increased death and turnover rates of branchial epithelial cells leads to accelerated aging of the gills.  These degenerating and newly-formed gill cells do not function normally, which further limits the fish's ability to maintain water and ion homeostasis under stressful conditions.  Thus, acute stress limits the fish's capacity to osmoregulate, and prolonged periods of extreme stress may result in osmotic shock and death (Bartelme, 2004).
 
Chronic stress impacts negatively on fish growth, digestion, and reproduction.  It is the main cause of deterioration in the slime coat.  It significantly lowers the ability of the immune system to respond effectively and fully.  And in all cases—stress reduces the fish’s lifespan.
 
The above is mainly copied from an article I wrote a couple years back, and there is much more but I won't go into that unless questions arise pertinent thereto.
 
Byron.
 
I will go at this from the other side. I do not agree that most store's have any clue about the background or handling of their fish before they get them. There are a number of reasons for this.
 
With wild fish is is very common for those who collect them to 'fib" about where they collected them in order to protect their lively hoods. A good collecting location is a real asset. Next, it depends what time of year fish are collected in many cases. Where there is a rainy season water bodies normally isolated become connected and the fish can move between them. One of the most commonly documented species are the killies. And this took a supreme effort on the part of hobbyists and collectors etc. to get into effect. I have persoanlly dealt with such issues in seeking to get altum angels from different rivers.
 
With farmed fish it is almost impossible to know the genealogy of ones fish nor would you likely ever consider keeping fish under the same conditions. We will have no clue to the genetic diversity at the outset or since. And the amazing part of that is seemingly huge populations of such fish show unusually low diversification in terms of how many genetically different fish it takes to get them. take a look at pages 396 - 398 of this paper "Conservation genetics of freshwater fish" http://www.mbari.org/staff/vrijen/PDFS/Vrijen_1998JFB.pdf
 
 
Imagine a founding stock of 10 fish (five males+five females) used to start a colony that is subsequently maintained with 1000 breeding adults. After 10 generations the mean of Ne is only 91 fish, and after 100 generations is about 500 fish. The founding size of a captive stock should be as large as possible, as most diversity will be lost at founding and not regained.
 
Start with 10 unrelated fish. Have them reproduce to 1,000 adults and then hold the population at 1,000 fish for 10 generations (i.e. 10,000 adult fish all told with 1,000 interbreeding each generation) and you end up with the equivalent of 91 genetically different adult fish. Stretch it to 100 generations, or 100,000 fish and its only 500 genetically unique fish.
 
In considering if fish are adapting fast, you need to know their history not just what happens in a few generations in a tank with less than ideal parameters.
 
Finally, the parameters for any fish in the wild are always a range, not absolute numbers. Nor can it be assumed from this that the the middle of the range is the ideal. And then who has the equipments and staff needed to monitor the parameters over generations?
 
TwoTankAmin said:
I do not agree that most store's have any clue about the background or handling of their fish before they get them.
 
I just want to make sure I am clear about the definition of LFS. It is not that big chain pet store that is 12 minutes from where you live. It's that small business that you may have to travel quite a distance to visit and really cares about it's customers. I really miss the days when there was a Mom and Pop pet store in almost every town.
 
I did not say that most know. Most probably don't even care as long as the fish live in their tanks, my point was that some information is available. The conditions at the distributor and the conditions at the distributors source should be fairly easy to get if you talk to the right people and they will be more than happy to give you that information. I've seen owners/managers that knew so much about the fish in their tanks, it was mind blowing. The owner of one place I worked at, a primarily fish store that specialized in salt water, was an ichthyologist. The guy was a savant and he had a way of talking that made his vast knowledge seem "matter of fact", if you know what I mean. He retained so much and could access it unlike I've ever seen. This was a long time ago and I don't think he utilized the internet at all. He would get shipments from the Far East and knew where all the fish were reportedly caught. I'm not talking about a dozen or so fish. Some types were bought in the hundreds, some in the singles and there could easily be 50 different types. For me, taking in a shipment was better than Christmas and happened way more often. This guy was an exception to the rule but my point is that the information is there. You just need to know how to get it, if you want it.
 
IMHO, if you don't know at least the general conditions of the water that you buy your fish from, you have not purchased your fish correctly. I don't mean that you ask for a water test every time you buy fish. Just that you should at least have an idea of what is going on. Let's take some of the more common SA cichlids as an example. Natural conditions are soft acidic water, but they can do well in above neutral pH and hard water. If your LFS is keeping them in a higher PH, you are going to want to acclimate them slowly to your conditions. If you are looking at a species that is more sensitive and seems to be doing well in their water, I would think twice about trying to acclimate them to natural conditions. I would aim for something closer to the conditions found at the store.
 
IMHO, if you don't know at least the general conditions of the water that you buy your fish from, you have not purchased your fish correctly. I don't mean that you ask for a water test every time you buy fish. Just that you should at least have an idea of what is going on. Let's take some of the more common SA cichlids as an example. Natural conditions are soft acidic water, but they can do well in above neutral pH and hard water. If your LFS is keeping them in a higher PH, you are going to want to acclimate them slowly to your conditions. If you are looking at a species that is more sensitive and seems to be doing well in their water, I would think twice about trying to acclimate them to natural conditions. I would aim for something closer to the conditions found at the store.
 
 
My previous post was an attempt to point out the ramifications to most fish when water parameters are significantly different from where they were spawned and raised.  And obviously that would apply to the habitat with wild-caught fish, or to the hatchery/breeder with non-wild fish.  So with that out of the way...
 
We have to be careful about generalizations, as species do differ in the extent to which they can adapt.  "Doing well" is not always easy to see; as I mentioned, temporary issues the fish is struggling with internally may not be obvious at all.  And to use your example, some species of SA cichlid do have a wider tolerance than others; frequently this can be ascertained by knowing the habitat range.
 
Rarely will the water parameters in a fish store approximate those from where the fish came, though this can occur.  Most stores intend to move fish relatively quickly, and from what I wrote previously we can see that temporary conditions may have minimal impact on the fish's physiology long-term, though not always.  But the point is that the fish from source "A" are shipped to the store, and within perhaps a week, or two or three, will be shipped out of the store to a permanent home aquarium.  It is this final stage that is the important one, and knowing the source "A" conditions is more pertinent than knowing the store's.  Though again, this can vary.
 
Byron.
 
There is another aspect to consider, and that is the natural barriers to fish that result from different water parameters.  One example, the many distinct species of Corydoras in the northern tributaries of the Rio Negro.  When collecting and describing some of the "adolfoi" like species in the mid 1990's, Dr. David Sands opinioned that the natural water parameters between the various tributaries and the main channel of the Rio Negro likely served as a natural barrier, preventing the individual species from spreading.
 
The discovery of new species of Corydoras in the Negro River tributaries poses several questions.  The main river has been scientifically and commercially collected for the last two decades without revealing species belonging to this genus.  There are water chemistry differences between the tributaries and the main river which could explain this anomaly.  Analysis of water samples, obtained directly from the Upper Rio Negro at Sao Gabriel da Cachoeira measured pH 4.5-4.6, without any detectable hardness and temperatures around 28 Centigrade (30 in the shallows).  These measurements of water samples, obtained during a field survey in November 1992, are within the pH range 4.5-4.8, recorded at 20 habitat sites (Goulding et al., 1988).  The Miua water samples, obtained several miles up the tributary and nearest to the Upper Rio Negro (the biotope for C. crypticus and C. bicolor) revealed a higher pH 5.5 and 5.9, and a lower temperature of 25 C.  The pH and temperature readings from samples taken at a habitat for C. adolfoi Burgess 1982, and C. imitator Nijssen & Isbrucker 1983 (about 60-70 kilometres upstream), also revealed a higher range, pH 6.2-6.5 and 23 C.  These readings show marked difference from the Upper Rio Negro waters.  ... The combination of all these factors could represent an ecological barrier for certain fish species, including Corydoras, which are often recorded with a restricted distribution.
 
A 2008 study of the three presently classified "species" of discus carried out by Farias and Hrbek concluded that the discus is most likely not a true "species" because the fish appears to be in the process of diversification, which eventually will lead to one (or more) distinct species.  The present colour forms do therefore not represent species or subspecies.  But what is of importance here for our purposes is their suggestion "that differences among the ‘blue’, ‘Heckel’ and ‘brown’ groups are potentially maintained by differences in water chemistry preferences" of the fish.
 
From these and several other examples, it would seem that water chemistry plays a very significant role for these fish.  We should keep this in mind as we attempt to force a species to "adapt" to significantly different parameters.
 
Byron.
 
Byron- those authors have done more research since 2008 and they still maintain thier point of view. However, they also acknowledge that some well respected people do not agree with them. This second work builds upon their earlier results. You can find the study here: http://www.hindawi.com/journals/ijeb/2011/360654/
 
Here is their one line conclusion: "In summary, we conclude that the genus Symphysodon is comprised of five ESUs."
(Evolutionary Significant Units = ESUs)
 
It seems to me that there is agreement that Symphysodon is a genus and disagreement when it comes to speciation. It also seems tht these ESUs are the result as much of geographical considerations rather than parameters. Given the nature of floods plains and seasons combined with geological considerations, this may be as responsible for any potential speciation as parameters. It thinks this would be similar to what Darwin found in the Galapacos. When species become localized and isolated as a result, over time they will evolve by adapting to the conditions where they are or else they will die off.
 
I am aware of at least one or two current studies which are investigating this same concept in Altum Angels. There are thought to be distinct populations found in different rivers. the problem is after the fish are born many end up downstream where multiple rivers converge. They are doing the same sort of genetic analysis of fin clippings as the authors of the above studies have.
 
But considering the discus populations in the two studies are indeed headed towards being described as different species, the time frames involved for them to have become such is much more than the few short generations this thread started off considering. My read would be if all the discus ESUs are living happily in different parameters, then those parameters would have had to be withing a parameter range that the discus could thrive in. They may eventually become less "flexible" over time if they remain isolated, but this is a phenomenon measured in centuries or millenia not years or decades.
 
TwoTankAmin said:
When species become localized and isolated as a result, over time they will evolve by adapting to the conditions where they are or else they will die off.
 
Can't that be applied to captive bred fish as well?
 
RobRocksFishTank said:
When species become localized and isolated as a result, over time they will evolve by adapting to the conditions where they are or else they will die off.
 
Can't that be applied to captive bred fish as well?
I think the question is 'how many generations does that take'? Does anyone know?
 

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