Betta With Whitespot

[-L-O-T-T-E-]

I think my betta Rufus has got whitespot... as he has a few whiteish spots on him. I have only had him since sat and my water conditions are good.

He is currently living with a ADF and a catfish!!

I have turned the temp up to 28C!!

Any help would be great!!

I don't want him to die

 

[LauraFrog]

Okay, how big is the tank and what sort of catfish is it? Do you have filtration?
Water stats (ammonia/nitrite/nitrate/pH) are really useful to us.
Where did you get him from and was he in a tank with other fish?

A photo would be good. A lot of things can cause white spots. The usual 'whitespot' or 'ich' looks like the fish has been sprinkled with salt crystals. The white dots are very small and are never fuzzy. Larger white spots, especially if they are raised, fuzzy or rimmed with red are probably bacterial rather than parasitic. When we know what's wrong with him it will probably be curable.

 

[-L-O-T-T-E-]

Hi my stats on Tuesday night were:

pH - 7 - 7.2 (maybe 7.6... couldn't work out what was the closest colour lol)

High range pH - 7.4

Ammonia - 0 - 0.25

Nitrite No2 - 0

Nitrate No3 - 10

My tank is 30 litres and my catfish is a suckermouth/ plec catfish.

I didn't get chance to do them last night as I was working till late. I will do them again tonight and hopfully give him some medicaine

Last night he had 2 raised white dots on his nose bigger than a grain of salt and raised like a ball!! This morning he only had one!! But he now has more on his fins... not many on his body. They don't look red, just bright white and like iccle balls... the the head of a small pin!!

I can start giving hm medicaine tonight and I can give hime some more tomorrow morning... but than I am away till Sun evening... will this be ok??

*cry*

 

[LauraFrog]

This doesn't sound like whitespot to me. In my opinion it's best not to medicate until we're absolutely sure what's wrong. Throwing medicines around without a definite diagnosis often does more harm than good. What medicines do you have on hand? A photo would really help if there's any chance of getting one.

Most suckermouth catfish grow to about a foot long. The smallest, the bristlenose, can be kept in about 70 litres but not less. So he will eventually outgrow your tank, but for the time being it's not overstocked, so nothing to freak out about there.
Do you have a spare tank anywhere? (Or more importantly, a spare heater. A large plastic container will do as a hospital tank.) A lot of fish medications can harm the african dwarf frog, so it might be a good idea to isolate either the betta or the ADF while you treat.

Did you get both fish and the ADF at the same time and put them in a new tank? If your tank is showing a trace of ammonia it might mean that it's not cycled. 0.25 is probably not enough to make a betta sick. My mum overfed mine last week, killed several, and every one that's left alive survived 3ppm ammonia for several days. (I don't know how they lived.) But if there is a trace showing it means that your filter is not processing the ammonia fully, and it's quite likely to spike. Keep testing it every day that you're there.

Is there any chance of a photo? There are so many illnesses that can cause white spots to appear on fish. Some are parasitic, some are bacterial, and some are fungal. Medications that are 'broad spectrum' enough to 'cure' all of these illnesses are usually either utterly ineffective, or so toxic that they kill just about everything (often including the fish and almost certainly including a dwarf frog.) So you're far better off working out exactly what the fish is suffering from and then using a specific medication to kill whatever it was.

Do you mind telling me what country you're from? It's just that the names of medications (and the ways that you get them) vary from country to country.

 

[-L-O-T-T-E-]

This doesn't sound like whitespot to me. In my opinion it's best not to medicate until we're absolutely sure what's wrong. Throwing medicines around without a definite diagnosis often does more harm than good. What medicines do you have on hand? A photo would really help if there's any chance of getting one.

Most suckermouth catfish grow to about a foot long. The smallest, the bristlenose, can be kept in about 70 litres but not less. So he will eventually outgrow your tank, but for the time being it's not overstocked, so nothing to freak out about there.
Do you have a spare tank anywhere? (Or more importantly, a spare heater. A large plastic container will do as a hospital tank.) A lot of fish medications can harm the african dwarf frog, so it might be a good idea to isolate either the betta or the ADF while you treat.

Did you get both fish and the ADF at the same time and put them in a new tank? If your tank is showing a trace of ammonia it might mean that it's not cycled. 0.25 is probably not enough to make a betta sick. My mum overfed mine last week, killed several, and every one that's left alive survived 3ppm ammonia for several days. (I don't know how they lived.) But if there is a trace showing it means that your filter is not processing the ammonia fully, and it's quite likely to spike. Keep testing it every day that you're there.

Is there any chance of a photo? There are so many illnesses that can cause white spots to appear on fish. Some are parasitic, some are bacterial, and some are fungal. Medications that are 'broad spectrum' enough to 'cure' all of these illnesses are usually either utterly ineffective, or so toxic that they kill just about everything (often including the fish and almost certainly including a dwarf frog.) So you're far better off working out exactly what the fish is suffering from and then using a specific medication to kill whatever it was.

Do you mind telling me what country you're from? It's just that the names of medications (and the ways that you get them) vary from country to country.

I don't have any medicaine as of yet... I came into work early so I could go and get something tonight!! As I am at work I can't really get a pic maybe I could find one on Google or something!!

Don't worry my catfish it is going back... it was going to be tonight!! But after I found the spot I am not gonna bother.

I do have a spare tank... but not a heater

Yeah I got them at the same time

I will do all the tests again tonight... fingers crossed they are ok!!

I want them to be ok *cry*

I am from England

 

[-L-O-T-T-E-]

Found a pic... they look like this, but no where near as many!!

http/www.jbl.de/onlinehospitaluk/perpict...lickedPic=001_b

 

[LauraFrog]

Sounds like pretty classic whitespot then... fortunately, this one is usually straightforward to get rid of. Ramp the temp up a bit more, get it up to 30 if you can because the parasite that causes whitespot does not appreciate being cooked. Increasing the temperature has the double effect of speeding up the parasite's lifecycle, which is important. It can't be killed while it's actually on the fish. There's a stage in its lifecycle where it drops off the fish into the gravel, and if the medication is in the tank at this stage of its lifecycle, it dies there.

A lot of people panic and switch meds when more spots appear after they start treatment, and a lot of people also stop treating when the spots go away and then freak out when the spots come back (because there were still live parasites in the gravel.) So if you stick with it, and keep treating for two weeks after the spots have all gone, then he should be fine. It's very rare that whitespot will kill an otherwise healthy fish if it's caught and treated early.

The best medication for whitespot seems to be copper sulfate. It's usually sold as Coppersafe, but there are a lot of other meds that use this as their primary ingredient. It seems to work on some of the more stubborn cases that don't respond to other treatments (if you've got a bit of time spare, have a look at what happened to Janene's betta over in the betta section before she switched him onto copper. He was the worst I've ever seen, but apparently made a full recovery.)
Copper sulfate is fatal to most invertebrates, so if there are any shrimp or snails in the tank (even accidental ones, they can end up in there on live plants etc.) try to get them out. They will die and rot and send your water quality through the floor.

I'm not sure about using coppersafe in a tank with an ADF in it. Personally I'd be nervous. Is there any chance of picking up a cheap heater somewhere so you can set up a temporary home for him? Even a reptile heat pad will do, because an ADF can be comfortable in as little as one gallon temporarily.

If you've added fish to a brand new tank, then it won't be cycled. There are some pinned topics in the New To The Hobby section that explain the nitrogen cycle in detail. It would take me all night to type out the whole thing but I'll give you a very condensed version here. Basically there are some bacteria that live in a mature ('cycled') tank's filter, and they convert highly toxic ammonia (a byproduct of the metabolism of aquatic life, and also the breakdown of poo and uneaten food) into less toxic compounds. It's complicated to explain, but basically if the bacteria are not present and healthy, then the ammonia will build up and build up in your tank. Ammonia is extremely toxic to fish. Any ammonia at all, even a trace, is stressful to fish. At levels over 0.5 it starts to kill things. The best thing you can do if the tank is not cycled is to keep testing and water changing. If the tank isn't cycled and it has livestock in it, then you're currently in what's known as a fish-in cycle, meaning that you're trying to establish that bacterial population around your pets. It can be done, but you'll need to test the water every day and change some of it whenever the ammonia level is over 0.25 ppm.

If you've put those animals in a brand new tank and it's not cycled, you might want to pick up a bottle of API Ammo-lock. You can usually get it fairly easily. It converts the ammonia into a far less toxic form that can be removed by the filter bacteria (so won't prevent your tank cycling) but it will protect your fish and frog, especially since you'll be away for a few days.

When you get home can you please put up your tapwater ammonia reading as well? Some cities add ammonia, as well as chlorine, to the water. The concentrations they use are totally harmless to humans, but will kill fish, and are a lot more of a pain to get rid of than chlorine in the water. (You are using water dechlorinator, right?)

 

[-L-O-T-T-E-]

Sounds like pretty classic whitespot then... fortunately, this one is usually straightforward to get rid of. Ramp the temp up a bit more, get it up to 30 if you can because the parasite that causes whitespot does not appreciate being cooked. Increasing the temperature has the double effect of speeding up the parasite's lifecycle, which is important. It can't be killed while it's actually on the fish. There's a stage in its lifecycle where it drops off the fish into the gravel, and if the medication is in the tank at this stage of its lifecycle, it dies there.

A lot of people panic and switch meds when more spots appear after they start treatment, and a lot of people also stop treating when the spots go away and then freak out when the spots come back (because there were still live parasites in the gravel.) So if you stick with it, and keep treating for two weeks after the spots have all gone, then he should be fine. It's very rare that whitespot will kill an otherwise healthy fish if it's caught and treated early.

The best medication for whitespot seems to be copper sulfate. It's usually sold as Coppersafe, but there are a lot of other meds that use this as their primary ingredient. It seems to work on some of the more stubborn cases that don't respond to other treatments (if you've got a bit of time spare, have a look at what happened to Janene's betta over in the betta section before she switched him onto copper. He was the worst I've ever seen, but apparently made a full recovery.)
Copper sulfate is fatal to most invertebrates, so if there are any shrimp or snails in the tank (even accidental ones, they can end up in there on live plants etc.) try to get them out. They will die and rot and send your water quality through the floor.

I'm not sure about using coppersafe in a tank with an ADF in it. Personally I'd be nervous. Is there any chance of picking up a cheap heater somewhere so you can set up a temporary home for him? Even a reptile heat pad will do, because an ADF can be comfortable in as little as one gallon temporarily.

If you've added fish to a brand new tank, then it won't be cycled. There are some pinned topics in the New To The Hobby section that explain the nitrogen cycle in detail. It would take me all night to type out the whole thing but I'll give you a very condensed version here. Basically there are some bacteria that live in a mature ('cycled') tank's filter, and they convert highly toxic ammonia (a byproduct of the metabolism of aquatic life, and also the breakdown of poo and uneaten food) into less toxic compounds. It's complicated to explain, but basically if the bacteria are not present and healthy, then the ammonia will build up and build up in your tank. Ammonia is extremely toxic to fish. Any ammonia at all, even a trace, is stressful to fish. At levels over 0.5 it starts to kill things. The best thing you can do if the tank is not cycled is to keep testing and water changing. If the tank isn't cycled and it has livestock in it, then you're currently in what's known as a fish-in cycle, meaning that you're trying to establish that bacterial population around your pets. It can be done, but you'll need to test the water every day and change some of it whenever the ammonia level is over 0.25 ppm.

If you've put those animals in a brand new tank and it's not cycled, you might want to pick up a bottle of API Ammo-lock. You can usually get it fairly easily. It converts the ammonia into a far less toxic form that can be removed by the filter bacteria (so won't prevent your tank cycling) but it will protect your fish and frog, especially since you'll be away for a few days.

When you get home can you please put up your tapwater ammonia reading as well? Some cities add ammonia, as well as chlorine, to the water. The concentrations they use are totally harmless to humans, but will kill fish, and are a lot more of a pain to get rid of than chlorine in the water. (You are using water dechlorinator, right?)

Awww thanks for your help...

Phew we know what it is Good job I look at them all the time as I think I have got it early.

I will go to the shop tonight and get something for whitespot... currently the heater is not on as the temp of the water is higher than 28c, maybe even 30c.

If I put my frog into a new tank... what water should I put in?? also with the room temp being so high would he be ok without a heater?? as it generally stays well abobe 26c

My tank had been up and runnng for about a month before they went in!!

What causes whitespot??

I will test my tap water 2

x x

 

[Curiosity101]

Just a note to say the most common whitespot med (that I've seen) in the Uk is 'Interpet No. 6 Anti Whitespot'
I've used it myself before and it cleared the whitespot up great

 

[-L-O-T-T-E-]

Just a note to say the most common whitespot med (that I've seen) in the Uk is 'Interpet No. 6 Anti Whitespot'
I've used it myself before and it cleared the whitespot up great

Cool thanks I am just trying to see if there are any which would be suitable for my frog!!

Looks like I will be spending my night in pets at home!!

 

[LauraFrog]

If you can get coppersafe that's the best thing to use. A lot of the medications give vague instructions as to when to redose, and how much. A lot of them degrade, and so you have to keep re-treating. There are people on these forums (Wilder in particular, and Tolak too I think) who have worked out exactly how and when to redose the meds so that they are always strong enough, without killing the fish. I'm not sure, so hopefully one of them will turn up.

If it's always above 26 you can probably risk it without a heater. I do that all the time in summer. I didn't think it would stay so warm all the time in summer in England.
Drain a bit of water from the tank into the frogs' container, like a few cups. Rinse it out very, very thoroughly to remove any traces of soap etc. Empty it and then fill with water from the tank. Then refill the tank from the tap (add your dechlor of course)

Running a tank for a month with no fish does not cycle it because there is nothing for the bacteria to feed on, so they do not grow. This is a common myth encountered at fish stores (running a tank empty.) Unless you actually add ammonia from a bottle, and monitor the levels of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate (this is a fishless cycle) leaving the tank run without fish in it won't do anything. The stocking load on the tank is not heavy, so you're not going to have to fight the ammonia level every step of the way. It sounds like the tank isn't cycled, but if you test the water daily and do a 50% water change whenever the ammonia or the nitrite is over 0.25 then there won't be any harm done. The real problems start when people overstock a tank that isn't cycled and if we can't convince them to rehome some of the fish while it cycles, sometimes they have to do 70% water changes 2 or 3 times a day.

Whitespot is caused by a parasite. It burrows into the fish to feed on the blood, and the dead skin that it leaves behind appears on the skin as a little white dot. When there are a few of these, the fish is uncomfortable and you might see it flick in the water or rub itself on objects to try and scratch off the parasites. When there are a lot, the fish is seriously weakened.
Like a lot of common illnesses whitespot is opportunistic. It tends to attack fish that have a compromised immune system (although not always!) A lot of the deaths that are blamed by beginners on whitespot, are actually caused by vastly inappropriate water conditions, ammonia in the water, fluctuating temperatures or severe stress because there is a predator in the tank. The fish are so stressed out that they get anything and everything, and whitespot is usually the most outwardly obvious of the cocktail of diseases that kills them, so it gets the blame.
So if you're reading all over the internet about how whitespot has knocked off entire tanks, don't panic, this is rare. It does happen, but usually because it is caught late, treated incorrectly, or because the fish are already weakened or stressed. There is still a chance that you could lose the betta, but since there are only a few spots I don't think you will provided you keep on top of the water changes while your tank cycles. Bettas are freaking tough.

 

[Curiosity101]

What's wrong with getting him one of those cheap pet carriers? There are some clear with blue lids and some a greeny colour. They're only about £5...

Interpet No6. isn't at all vague on dosage and I have used it (at full strength may I add), with my kuhlie loach. And have had no problems.
Although my outbreak of whitespot was not caused by bad water, it was caused by infected fish from the lfs. I stupidly hadn't checked them over before I got home and only noticed the 3 spots when it was too late.

 

[-L-O-T-T-E-]

I am going to pop my frog into my old 7 litre tank and dose my infected tank. I wont be able to do this on sat... will this be really bad??

Also I have extra carbon in my filter... should I take the pellets out and just use the filter pad (which does have some carbon in)?

He had better pull through!!!

 

[Curiosity101]

Not dosing till Saturday could be quite a bit problem actually. You really need to start treatment as soon as the fish is diagnosed. Which is today.

And yes, remove ALL activated carbon or it will remove the medication (whichever you choose) from the water.

 

[-L-O-T-T-E-]

Not dosing till Saturday could be quite a bit problem actually. You really need to start treatment as soon as the fish is diagnosed. Which is today.

And yes, remove ALL activated carbon or it will remove the medication (whichever you choose) from the water.

No no no!! I am gonna start straight away tonight!! But I will have to miss a day on Sat as I am away... but surly giving him 2 doses before sun is better than none... right??

What about the carbon that is built into the filter pad???